Corporal punishment
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#1: Corporal punishment Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:22 am
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There's a scene somewhere in which someone (apologies for the vagueness) talking about a problem girl and some particularly outrageous bit of misbehaviour, wishes for 'a cane and the right to use it.' The response -- which I think mentions Margot Maynard as an example of a naughty girl who has, however, been taught right from wrong and thus has no excuse, therefore deserving caning for bad behaviour, unlike the miscreant -- suggests that caning is not an entirely unheard-of punishment for girls. No surprise etc is expressed at the idea.

Can anyone identify the passage? Also, although as far as I can remember we never hear about corporal punishment elsewhere, bar things like Mr Barrass and Tony, and Jem spanking a Balbini twin (both male instances), would some form of corporal punishment have been used at schools like the CS, or in the home lives of CS girls? Does Freudesheim have a cane in Jack's study, and if so, is it only for the boys?
#2:  Author: JayB, Location: SE England PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:53 am
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I think the wishing for a cane and the right to use it was used more than once, and was a bit of hyperbole born of frustration after a particularly bad lesson or prep session. I don't think the mistress or prefect concerned seriously meant it. I also think there's at least one instance where the parent of a naughty girl advised the school authorities to use a cane. I don't think corporal punishment would ever have been used at the CS, though. I think it would have gone against the ethos of the school.

It is stated that Professor Fry had once caned Richenda. But he isn't presented as a model parent by any means, so I don't think we're meant to approve of his methods.

I think there's a suggestion in Joey & Co that Mike might have been spanked or caned for going over the cliff and causing Joey to faint, but I can't recall any other instance of 'planned' corporal punishment of a Maynard, as opposed to a smack as an instant corrective for temper.
#3:  Author: Clare, Location: Liverpool PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:13 am
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JayB wrote:
I think the wishing for a cane and the right to use it was used more than once, and was a bit of hyperbole born of frustration after a particularly bad lesson or prep session. I don't think the mistress or prefect concerned seriously meant it.


*Raises hand guiltily* I'm sure I've said it in temper in the staff room...

From what I've read of the period, wouldn't girls have been more likely to get a ruler/cane across the hand? But there is no mention of that happening as a punishment. The girls are more likely to lose free time(detention), be sent to the Head/Prefects, given lines or an inventive punishment to fit the crime.
#4:  Author: JS, Location: Perthshire PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:28 am
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We had the tawes, a fearsome leather strap with sort of fringing at the end, but I can't see that being applied in the Chalet School. It's pretty barbaric, come to think of it and I'm not sure when it was banned but it was still alive and kicking in the eighties.

My mum has told me about being rapped over the fingers with a wooden-backed duster (for chalking her arms blue, don't ask me why!)
#5:  Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:45 am
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The cane was still used in my school in the late 60s for both boys and girls. (My brother was on the receiving end on numerous occasions! Rolling Eyes )
#6:  Author: JS, Location: Perthshire PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:18 am
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Actually, my dad used to get the 'belt' or leather strap every day in life at primary school for a while because he played football with the older boys whose breaktime was slightly different, so he was always late back to class. Clearly did him no good at all - he just saw it as occupational hazard and worth the risk.
#7:  Author: Aquabird, Location: North Lanarkshire PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:36 am
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The belt was still in use when my mum and dad were at school - my dad was at school in the late 60s/early 70s, and my mum in the 80s, though I think it had been banned by the time she left.
#8:  Author: Jenefer, Location: London PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:06 pm
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In A London Girl of the1880s, M V Hughes writes about her time at North London Collegiate School and has a lot to say about rules and discipline.

Punishment as the boys knew it was impossible. Caning was out of the question, and detention was almost equally so.
and
Reproof, therefore, was the only form of punishment available, and it is hardly to be wondered at that Miss Buss had brought it to a fine art. It ranged from the mild disgrace of 'signing' to the third degree in the private room.

Molly Hughes went on to train as a teacher at Cambridge then taught in various girls schools, She set up a teacher training course at Bedford College, London before marrying and bringing up her family. I think she worked as a School Inspector in later life.
#9:  Author: Maeve, Location: Romania PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:18 pm
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Professor Fry caned Richenda on the hands for going into his china room.
Quote:
Twice before, he had caned her for a similar offence when he found that talking seemed to do no good. The last time, the punishment had been so severe that her hands had been sore for days.


And Norah Fitzgerald's father whipped her for riding his untrained colt.
Quote:
Her immediate punishment had been a sound whipping, bed for a day, bread and water for a week and the loss of her own pony for the rest of the summer.
I can't think of any other examples, but EBD doesn't sound amazed or outraged about either incident. Nor does it sounds as though Richenda's nurse objected in any way.
#10:  Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:39 pm
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I've a vague idea that it was actually a prefect - could it have been one of OOAO's gang? - who made the comment about the cane.

My older cousin - who was at school in the 70s/early 80s - used to get hit with a slipper at school Shocked, and the cane was certainly in use when Mum and Dad were at school in the 50s and 60s.

I don't think that anyone ever got caned actually at the CS, but I would think that Jack had a cane, certainly for the boys, and I'm quite sure that Jem had one.

Not corporal punishment as such, but Miss Wilson tells Eustacia that if someone at a boys' school "sneaked" in the way that she'd done then they'd get thrashed by one of the other lads - in the context of the times/the type of school she meant not an unreasonable thing to say, but it seems quite shocking by today's standards ... but Miss Wilson evidently didn't seem anything wrong with it.
#11:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:57 pm
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Alison H wrote:
I've a vague idea that it was actually a prefect - could it have been one of OOAO's gang? - who made the comment about the cane.

My older cousin - who was at school in the 70s/early 80s - used to get hit with a slipper at school Shocked, and the cane was certainly in use when Mum and Dad were at school in the 50s and 60s.


My grandfather used to talk about trying to ride his bicycle home with his hands smarting from being caned - that would have been during and just after WWI - while both my parents talk about teachers throwing chalk or board rubbers (1950s/early 60s) and, finally, I had a teacher who had a tendency to pull you out of your seat by your ear if you'd been naughty and THAT was in the middle 80s! Come to think, we also had a couple of teachers who threw board rubbers - although that was never actually at the class.

On the subject of the CS and the cane, Primrose Trevose's dad is one of the people who suggested Miss Annersley ought to buy a cane and use it on his daughter - that's after she'd had one term at the Tanswick Chalet School.

There's also comments about "if you were a boy you'd be caned" - I'm pretty sure there's someone else in addition to Eustacia who has that said to them.

Ray *only had her ear pulled once*
#12:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:59 pm
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Quote:
“Oh, I shouldn't do that,” Len said suavely. “In any case corporal punishment has never been used in this school and it is most unlikely it ever will be. I'm afraid you'll have to put up with present conditions, boring or not.”
That's in Prefects, and sounds pretty definitive as far as the school proper is concerned, despite all the figurative language.

The only other instance of actual caning for a girl I can think of is Melanie Kerdec, after the kidnapping of Sybil, despite Miss A's pleas for leniency.

I get the impression that spanking for small children is considered a normal and effective deterrent among the Maynards etc. For example, Hilary's daughter is spanked for burying Rufus' chain and for slapping Lois. However, there seems to be a cultural age limit -- not sure what -- after which one is "too old to be spanked" or otherwise treated to corporal punishment.

For example, this comment in Theodora about Margot after Hilary (prefect) wishes for a "good springy cane and the right to use it":
Quote:
She’s fourteen—nearly fifteen. You can’t very well use a cane on a girl of that age,” Mary-Lou pointed out.
“Then more’s the pity! That’s all I’ve got to say. Someone will have to do something to bring that young demon to her senses—and pretty soon, too, or it’ll be too late.”


As far as Michael is concerned, it's here:
Quote:
“No—and no!” Joey stuck out her jaw. “The poor kid would think he was in disgrace the whole time and I won’t have him made as miserable as all that comes to. I agree that he ought to be punished for disobedience. Why on earth someone didn’t give him a sound whipping at the time, I can’t think. If Jack wouldn’t or couldn’t, where was Jem? He’s the boy’s uncle and the fit person to do it in the circumstances. But you’ll never get me to agree to a thing like this. Mike’s our boy and he’s going to realise that however bad he may be, we still love him and will go on loving him. I hate these punishments that drag on and on, anyhow. I believe that such treatment is far more likely to harden him than do him good.”
#13:  Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:25 am
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A cane and the right to use it seems quite a common EBD phrase. Jo thinks it of the Balbini twins in New CS:

Quote:
Still holding hands, the pair raced off down the path, only pausing when they were well out of reach, to turn and make a sign that roused Jo to yearnings for a cane and the right to use it.


Polly Heriot says it in Goes to it:

Quote:
‘I LIKE the Fifth; the babes are little dears, taking them by and large, and the Thirds are quite a jolly little set. But, oh! how I yearn for a cane and the right to use it on the Fourth!’


Hilary Bennet says it to the other prefects in Trials (speaking of Margot Maynard):

Quote:
“There are times and seasons when I wish I had a good springy cane and the right to use it!”


And Maeve says it in Triplets:

Quote:
“I wish I had a cane and the right to use it!” Maeve Bettany exploded at a prefects' meeting. “ I'd teach some of those brats in Lower IVb a lesson they jolly well need, I can tell you!”


So, it seems to be very prefect-ish yearning for way to fix those middles.

Actual canings / threatened canings seem limited to outside school - Tony Barrass asking if his father has the cane with him (after Tony has ruined the paint box in Three Go), Jo saying she's going to find a cane when the half term Chalet Girls wake baby Stephen in Lavender, Rosalie Dene talking in Richenda about Primrose Trevoase's father, who "begged the Abbess to provide herself with a cane and use it", Richenda's own father in the same book, Mike Maynard not being whipped in Joey & Co ...
#14:  Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:48 pm
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I think corporal punishment was very seldom used in girls-only schools, either fictionally or in real life, whatever may have been the norm at home.

Remember in "Linnets and Valerians" the uncle reminds the boys that he will cane them if they are disobedient or unruly, but is quite clear that the girls would receive other punishments.
#15:  Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:02 pm
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I think there was a big divide between the Grammar and Independent schools and the Secondary Moderns (ie where you went if you didn't pass the 11+ exam). I was shocked as a student doing teaching practice to discover that the girls were caned by the Senior Mistress.
#16:  Author: MaryR, Location: Cheshire PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:17 pm
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Caning is also mentioned in Shocks when Emerence stuffs the scarecrow down the drain. Miss Annersley says that Emerence has never been taught to think and Commander Christy responds to this:

Quote:
"Then a good caning would go a long way to teaching her, I should say," he retorted huffily.

"No, it would only put her back up and make her feel that all the world was against her.... If it had been done by anyone like Mary-Lou Trelawney or, say, your own Dickie, I should agree that a good caning was probably the best thing for her.....But corporal punishment won't do her any good."


So Miss Annersley, like Miss Wilson, clearly didn't see anything wrong with it. Corporal punishment was certainly still around much later than the era of Shocks. I suffered the slipper as a junior school child in the late fifties (the boys got the strap!)
#17:  Author: Maeve, Location: Romania PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:34 pm
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I think mayeb the scene that some of us are thinking of comes from Bride. Miss Annersley is talking about Primrose and how Mr. Trevoase asked her to reform her.
Quote:
‘Her father earnestly asked me to buy a cane and use it!’

Peggy Burnett retells the story in Richenda.
Quote:
“I remember the first term she came, her father begged the Abbess to provide herself with a cane and use it!”
#18:  Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:38 am
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From New Chalet School (regarding Mario and Maria)

Quote:
Still holding hands, the pair raced off down the path, only pausing when they were well out of reach, to turn and make a sign that roused Jo to yearnings for a cane and the right to use it.


From Goes To It


Quote:
But, oh! how I yearn for a cane and the right to use it on the Fourth!' Thus Polly Heriot as she entered the Prefects' room and slammed the door after her.


From Bride, as before

Quote:
She'd had one term at Tanswick and I gathered that her manners and conduct when she came home for the Christmas holidays left her parents bereft of breath.' She gave a sudden peal of laughter. 'Her father earnestly asked me to buy a cane and use it!'


From Theodora, the prefects talking about Margot

Quote:
There are times and seasons when I wish I had a good springy cane and the right to use it!"


From Triplets

Quote:
"I wish I had a cane and the right to use it!" Maeve Bettany exploded at a prefects' meeting. " I'd teach some of those brats in Lower IVb a lesson they jolly well need, I can tell you!"


and from Prefects

Quote:
"I wish," said Jocelyn aloud to herself, "that they used a cane in this school. It stings you up at the time, but at least it's over quickly and done with. This sort of thing is awful."
#19:  Author: Maeve, Location: Romania PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:54 am
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Wow! Shocked No wonder the caning reference sounds so familiar.
#20:  Author: Alex, Location: Oxford PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:47 pm
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Dad said they had a teacher at his school who would use the slipper. He would get a piece of chalk and draw a cross on the slipper, and then get a different colour of chalk and draw a cross on your bottom, and then try to line the two up when he hit you.
#21:  Author: Luisa, Location: Warks PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:27 pm
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At my primary school in the 60s, the cane was the ultimate deterrent - I think it was used once, under circumstances shrouded in mystery.
I confess to having used one - a genuine school cane from the mists of time - but on stage, on my husband (Ruddigore, in case you're wondering) It was amazing how much dust it raised on his costume! Shocked
#22:  Author: JackieP, Location: Kingston upon Hull PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:10 pm
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Luisa wrote:
I confess to having used one - a genuine school cane from the mists of time - but on stage, on my husband (Ruddigore, in case you're wondering) It was amazing how much dust it raised on his costume! Shocked


Dame Hannah and Sir Roderick...? Confused

JackieP
#23:  Author: Luisa, Location: Warks PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:25 pm
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Mad Margaret and Despard!
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