The CBB :: View topic - Coping with disappointment

Is this because the CS is a very nice place where disappointments don't "happen", or is it because CS girls are just supposed to bear disappointment stoically so the subject never comes up?

"I don’t want them to miss all the fun I’ve had with Frieda and Marie and Simone – nor all the joy. A friendship like ours is one of the greatest joys life can bring. Even though we’re all right apart now, it still lasts and I can rejoice in their happiness as I know they rejoice in mine. I can tell you, I was thrilled to the last toenail when Andre wrote to tell me that they had a son at last! I know both he and Simone had begun to fear that Tessa was to be an only child and that hadn’t been their idea at all.”

"I’m awfully glad you have him, Simone. I know it'’ always been a grief to you that you had only Tessa when the rest of us were steaming ahead with real families! Let’s hope,” she went on cheerfully as they turned and went back to her own room, “that’s the beginning of yours. You may have five more if you want ‘em. Then you’ve got to stop. If you don’t,” she added warningly, “I shall go on and see about those quads I promised the staff of the Chalet School last term.”

another off stage 'disappointment' which is interesting is Simone having difficulties having a second child. We don't hear any of the back story, and can only infer this by taking Joey's comments to her about *finally* getting a 'real' family as the insight of a friend who has been supporting Simone through infertility issues (of course, you could interpret this comment in a much less sympathetic light).

I was also thinking that there was a decent missed storyline in Jane over the play issue - rather than making Jack such a nasty piece of work, why couldn't the poor girl Jane had to step in for at the last minute harbour jealous resentment?

But in that case Blossom doesn't appear to have a single non-'sporting' thought and is commended by everyone for it, and gets Jennifer off punishment for locking her in, just so we get the moral about unselfishness and being a 'good CS girl'!

Maybe the idea is that if you accept disappointment with good grace then things will magically put themselves right :roll:

He always does if we could only learn to trust Him.

I'm just trying to think if we ever see someone asking why their parent/sibling had to get ill, or anything else that, unlike damage to a building, couldn't be put right ..

But though you must feel lonely now, and cry too, remember, darling, that for Auntie it is well.

‘Oh, how kind!’ sobbed Jacynth as she folded it up. ‘How kind everyone is! I oughtn’t to cry so, for I know it’s better for Auntie, and everyone is so good to me. But oh, Auntie – Auntie –’
Miss Wilson’s hand was on her shoulder, and Miss Wilson’s voice was speaking to her. ‘Jacynth! My child, don’t grieve like this! You will make yourself ill again, dear. Is that what would have pleased your aunt?’
‘No-o,’ sobbed Jacynth, sitting up, and showing her poor little face all swollen and disfigured with tears. ‘And I will try, Miss Wilson. But oh, it’s so hard to remember!’
‘I know it is, dear. I went through it myself when I was only twenty-two. My sister died first; then mother followed, and my father went six months later. I lost all three in one year. So, you see, I can understand.’

I'm just trying to think if we ever see someone asking why their parent/sibling had to get ill, or anything else that, unlike damage to a building, couldn't be put right ... other than when Naomi Elton talks about how her ideas of religion have been affected by the tragedies that she's suffered.

'God couldn't do that to Jo who's always doing all she can for other people. It wouldn't be kind and fair, and I know whatever else He is, He's both kind and fair.

a CS Headmistress, who is always fair and only inflicts punishments on those who've done something to merit it.

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a CS Headmistress, who is always fair and only inflicts punishments on those who've done something to merit it.

*cough* are you 100% you mean a CS headmistress... :wink:

no 'good' character has an inflated view of her own talents.

We don't see anyone's faith in God shaken by something awful happening, like Jack's possible death, or by a wish presumably prayed for but not being granted, like Simone (presumably) wanting more children, or Elisaveta's husband's safe return.

at the CS you wouldn't get people putting themselves forward for things unless they were acknowledged to be good, for example Nina and music

Isn't Vanna di Ricci mentioned in 'Rescue' as being a concert singer? I can't think that she was the school soprano- er - wasn't that Joey?
It would be awkward at the CS if you were good at something which might put a major character's nose out of joint. Love the idea of Joan Baker as PM!

Isn't Vanna di Ricci mentioned in 'Rescue' as being a concert singer? I can't think that she was the school soprano- er - wasn't that Joey?

Joan Baker, passed over for a prefectship as not the right type for leadership, ended up as Prime Minister?

Doesn't EBD only allow Hilda to tell the girls to pray when she, as their maker, knows that it is going to be all right?

...I am afraid I disagree with Miss Moore's advice on the subject being sensible - I think it is wrong to tell a teenager that they should accept ther school's/peer's pigeon-holing of their abilities. I think this is one of the greatest failings in the CS books - even though failure an be really upsetting, ambition is something that should be encouraged IMHO. Never overreach your-self, strive for mediocrity, and sure, you might never be disappointed. But at what price? I wish more CS girls had been *really* hungry for success (of any kind)!

Samantha van der Byl's comment that she wants to be a housewife, which horrifies Jack Lambert and the other people around but which is, as Samantha says, what most CS girls end up doing anyway. I like Samantha's comment purely because it's good to see someone daring to stand out from the crowd.

I also noticed Jem say at one point that he's being selfish for thinking of his loss, when he's first told of Jack's disappearance. Would this just be a symptom of the stoical male, or is this another way of dealing with disappointment - to think of everybody else rather than yourself? (after all, EBD's just been telling us that they're like brothers)

It'd be interesting to see a CS equivalent of one of those American yearbooks in which pupils vote for which of their classmates is Most Likely To ... whatever.

Does anyone have access to what was said to Daisy after she makes that comment about God not letting bad things happen to Jo....

...Rob! Say something! Say you don't believe it! It couldn't happen - not Jack! It couldn't!'

Robin picked up the wire and smoothed it out. She read it slowly, the tears dripping down her cheeks. 'Oh, Daisy,' she sobbed. 'It's true. Look here. The Admirality would never send this unless it were true.'

'I don't believe it!' repeated Daisy stormily. 'It's a mistake - it must be! The world needs Jack - look how clever he is, and all the work he's been doing! And Jo depends on him... What would she do if it was true?'

'I don't know.'

I think part of the reason we don't have consistency is that EBD isn't writing a treatise on her own faith.

I was suprised that an adult/authority figure didn't pipe up and give Daisy a little, gentle theology lesson, for example.

Sorry, I must sound like a grumpy old woman who wants everyone to be miserable :oops:

But it wouldn't be EBD if everyone was a frustrated malcontent like Grizel

I also think their is a huge difference between the two, because Mary Lou is sacrificing on her own terms for someone she loves, whereas Grizel knows she is in this situation because her father and stepmother disliked her enough to force her into a career she hated

I think we keep forgetting that she was writing for children and introspection was not the thing - it would hold up the story.

MaryR wrote:

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I think we keep forgetting that she was writing for children and introspection was not the thing - it would hold up the story.

Yes and no, to my mind. EBD goes in quite a lot for introspection, I think. So it is interesting what EBD chooses as the subjects of such introspection, and what she doesn't.

Slightly OT, but there are a lot of men in the books who don't make sacrifices, and - presumably because they're men - no-one criticises them for it.

Think how different Chalet would be if we began with Joey coughing on a windowseat and wondering what was going on downstairs, rather than Madge's dilemma, and then only got Joey's pov on events for her entire schooldays...?

Madge had to make huge sacrifices to look after Joey.

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Slightly OT, but there are a lot of men in the books who don't make sacrifices, and - presumably because they're men - no-one criticises them for it.

Yes! Yes! this drives me nuts. Prof. Trelawny - why is he (or Commander Carey, or the host of other parents head off to foreign climes) less selfish in EBD's mind than Prof. Richardson? Because he made arrangements for his child's well-being, I suppose (by at least having a wife and mother who had the courtesy not to die young). But even so, can you imagine the scenario of Doris heading off to the jungle for years on end, leaving her only child behind in the care of her husband?

I wonder if he felt guilty that he was away in the Amazon throughout the War. And so went to the rescue of his friends rather than face people at home where some may have seen as being a coward for not staying and fighting in WWII

Perhaps he was running away from Gran, she just got too much for him... Or maybe he was unhappy with home life... Or he just needed to be written out of the series for EBD's own purposes :wink:

Sybil is another one who, whilst she never actually says so, clearly feels that she's a disappointment to her parents.

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Sybil is another one who, whilst she never actually says so, clearly feels that she's a disappointment to her parents.

Yes, she never really regains her bumptiousness, does she? And whilst you could argue that this just shows that she learned her lesson, and became a less selfish person, instead you can't help wondering of she was just somewhat cowed.

I feel so sorry for Ted Grantley when she looks as Perfect Len and thinks that if she'd been beautiful too then maybe her mother would have loved her.

I do agree Sybil is somewhat cowed but I never get the impression that comes from Madge but more from Joey, who makes it clear at all times that the accident is Sybil's fault and always seems to watch out for potential vainity. Whereas it does say Madge forgave Sybil straight away so can't imagine she ever holds it over her.

In regards to Polly and Lalla... I do think if he really cared then he shouldn't of danced off overseas, the way he did.

I think that the war had far more far-reaching consequences than most people who weren't there do realise, and it affected so many millions of people.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Coping with disappointment
Just following on from the thread about university applications, does anyone else feel that, whilst many CS girls have to deal with major tragedies in their lives (loss of parents at a young age, the effect of war, serious accidents), very few of them have to deal with the more general disappointments that most people have to cope with (I mean fairly "big" general disappointments, not just not being able to go out because of bad weather and that sort of thing)? No-one ever gets turned down by the university of their choice, fails an exam, or finds out that the doctor of their dreams does not actually want to marry them. We don't really get the school story staple storyline of someone twisting their ankle the day before they were due to play in a vital lacrosse match or losing their voice the day before they were due to play the lead role in a play/concert, and (except on a very temporary basis, as with Peggy, Elfie and Mary-Lou) we don't really get the GO staple storyline of someone having to abandon their career plans because of family/money problems. If someone does suffer a disappointment, either they're shown in a negative light as trying to take revenge for it (e.g. Eilunedd in Peggy and Francie in Ruey) or else it's just kind of passed over (e.g. Josette when she's told that Madge and Jem are making her miss her year at St Mildred's). Is this because the CS is a very nice place where disappointments don't "happen", or is it because CS girls are just supposed to bear disappointment stoically so the subject never comes up? Or am I just waffling because I'm bored at work ?

Author:	Emma A [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
The only disappointments I can think of are those which are not presented directly - for example, in Wrong, doesn't Nita sprain an ankle which means that Katharine has to step in and play another match? EBD presents it all as how it affects Katharine, and not how disappointed Nita must feel. But I can't think of many other things - people say they want to do X or study at Y, and lo and behold, it happens. Grizel has to cope (not very well) with major disappointments, though - firstly her father refusing to let her study PT, and then her step-mother withholding funds for the venture with Deira, even if Miss Annersley helps her out with the latter, it doesn't end happily. Deira gets the chap she had fallen in love with in NZ, and again it takes a while for Grizel to get her happy ending. When you contrast her life to Joey's for example, there's quite a difference.

Author:	andydaly [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
No, this interests me too, good topic! I find disappointment is generally met with a "Buck up!" kind of attitude, like disappointment is just self-indulgent. One scene I remember vividly is Yseult Pertwee's idea of putting on "The Land of Heart's Desire" being totally rubbished, and her disappointment in not getting a part in the play is construed as downright impertinent. Their response to her is outraged dismissiveness at her arrogance - I know she is annoying, but it's not like she's asked can she sit in the mistresses' common room! (Incidentally, being told I was a silly little girl and being told to run along when I was fifteen would have got my gander up so badly, it would never have come back down again!) The good CS girls are, of course, pre-bucked up, and have no need to be told to pull themselves together! I haven't read Reunion, so I'd be interested to know - how do people see EBD's attitude to Grizel's disappointment? Does she get some sympathy from EBD, or is there a sense that if she shouldn't be wallowing in it?

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Grizel's the fascinating exception who proves the rule - her dad stops her from pursuing the career she wants, and then the man she likes decides he prefers her best friend . Some people are sympathetic over the career issue, but others seem to feel that it's a daughter's duty to obey her father even when he's forcing her into a career that she doesn't want. She does get some sympathy over Tony preferring Deira - but the problem isn't really dealt with in much detail as Neil Sheppard comes along and sweeps her off her feet! I'm glad that Grizel gets her happy ending, and I'm glad that Peggy and Elfie are both able to return to school when aunts/cousins conveniently offer to take over their housekeeping roles, but sadly in RL it's not usually that easy.

Author:	Tor [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
In Reunion, the 'symptoms' of Grizel's disappointment/depression are dealt with, and her unhappiness is certainly not rubbished. I don't think it is really discussed with her though. Similarly, in the earlier books (when ?Hilda? lends Grizel the money to go to NZ) her problems are acknowledged, and her frineds try to offer help, but to her face she isn't allowed to indulge in self-pity. When it seems that Mary-Lou will have to give up her career dreams, other characters talk about how sad that is (Len for eample saying 'Poor Maryl-Lou'), but then Jo goes on to say that ML is the sort who 'wont let that ruin her life'. And then she makes efforts to try an prevent that from happening if she can, by having Doris to stay with her at Freudesheim (one of the nicest 'quiet' things she does, I think - though I'm pretty sure EBD forgets about it). So again, not quite a 'Buck Up!' situation. And then there's Naomi: she has had to deal with a major personal catastrophe, including the loss of her promising career. She gets awhole book - and I guess you could say (in contrast to the discussion on the other thread about disability) that there we do see some examples of the CS trying to be understanding/accommodating of her bitterness. In some ways, I think, using the ultimate happy resolution of the various examples given so far as evidence that there was no disappointment at the CS is not quite fair to EBD, as often these resolutions happened a few books down the line. But the way the characters tend to deal with them at the time is often a tad too saintly for my liking.

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Author:	JB [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
The disappointments I could think of were in relation to minor characters or else they happen "off-stage": Carla von Flugen lost her husband and child in the war (and is then invited to become Joey's nursery governess ) Irma von Rothenfels loses her family during the war. Evvy's fiance dies in the war but she doesn't reappear until a number of years later (and is it me, or does the woman spend a disproportionate amount of time hanging around at Paris airport?) We're told that Wanda von Gluck and Gisela Mensch have lost children but not until some time afterwards - after they've left the series. I'm glad that Grizel gets her happy ending. I think she's one of the most interesting characters in the series. I'd have liked to see more of Naomi after her accident.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Alison H wrote: Is this because the CS is a very nice place where disappointments don't "happen", or is it because CS girls are just supposed to bear disappointment stoically so the subject never comes up? That's why Grizel is so interesting, in that she's disappointed in her career, and in love, and she doesn't take it on the chin the way a good CS girl is supposed to, but does become impatient and bitter. And Naomi Elton, too, whose bitterness is partly caused by not being able to be a dancer. But they really are seen as oddities, and even though they do get some sympathy from EBD, she does also seem to see them as partly to blame for allowing themselves to become embittered by disappointment. It's like that thing Joey says about Mary-Lou when it looks as though she needs to give up the idea of becoming an archeologist, something like 'ML is too fine a character to allow it to ruin her life'. In some ways, I find that quite modern, tough and psychologically useful - you are responsible for how you deal with the things that happen to you, and it's often the case that you can't change the things that happen, only how you decide to feel about them. But I don't think EBD gives enough thought to trauma and to unloving upbringings and how that colours your response to drawbacks - Grizel's character is very much the creation of her horrible home environment, so her career and love disappointments hit her harder than the same disappointments would have hit Mary-Lou or Joey, who grew up in happy, secure circumstances which show in every aspect of their adult characters. EBD does fudge or avoid the issue with major characters, simply because, say, Joey is presented as universally beloved (so by definition, she would never be in unrequited love) and a brilliant writer, (so she would never be in a situation where she can't get published, or gets dropped by her agent.) You see Joey facing potential tragedy, but not disappointment as such. You wonder how she would respond to Len not getting an Oxford place, or to Con writing novel after novel and never finding a publisher, or Stephen impregnating someone.

Author:	JS [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Elfie has to leave school and potentially postpone her career at least, but then she's allowed back. Joan Baker, however, has to leave to get a job because her parents have run through all their winnings...Poor Joan, no redemption for her, as usual. Peggy is disappointed when she things she'll have to stay at home and look after her mother but, again, she's reprieved. Apart from Grizel the only 'disappointed in love' character I can think of is Lorna's sister in the Wynards book, and again, she's very offstage. There are more deaths and disappointments in the la Rochelle books, I seem to recall.

Author:	Tor [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
another off stage 'disappointment' which is interesting is Simone having difficulties having a second child. We don't hear any of the back story, and can only infer this by taking Joey's comments to her about finally getting a 'real' family as the insight of a friend who has been supporting Simone through infertility issues (of course, you could interpret this comment in a much less sympathetic light). I was also thinking that there was a decent missed storyline in Jane over the play issue - rather than making Jack such a nasty piece of work, why couldn't the poor girl Jane had to step in for at the last minute harbour jealous resentment?

Author:	JB [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I do see Joey as sympathetic towards Simone's problems. In Changes, she tells Biddy: Quote: "I don’t want them to miss all the fun I’ve had with Frieda and Marie and Simone – nor all the joy. A friendship like ours is one of the greatest joys life can bring. Even though we’re all right apart now, it still lasts and I can rejoice in their happiness as I know they rejoice in mine. I can tell you, I was thrilled to the last toenail when Andre wrote to tell me that they had a son at last! I know both he and Simone had begun to fear that Tessa was to be an only child and that hadn’t been their idea at all.” In Oberland, her "real family" quote may not be tactful but I think she means well: Quote: "I’m awfully glad you have him, Simone. I know it'’ always been a grief to you that you had only Tessa when the rest of us were steaming ahead with real families! Let’s hope,” she went on cheerfully as they turned and went back to her own room, “that’s the beginning of yours. You may have five more if you want ‘em. Then you’ve got to stop. If you don’t,” she added warningly, “I shall go on and see about those quads I promised the staff of the Chalet School last term.” Edited because I had a quote in the wrong place.

Author:	Mia [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Tor wrote: another off stage 'disappointment' which is interesting is Simone having difficulties having a second child. We don't hear any of the back story, and can only infer this by taking Joey's comments to her about finally getting a 'real' family as the insight of a friend who has been supporting Simone through infertility issues (of course, you could interpret this comment in a much less sympathetic light). I hadn't thought about this before, that's an interesting take. I always thought the reason the de Bersacs didn't have more than one child was because they had no money. They have Pierre (and do they have another baby too?) once they come into the fortune. Maybe Andre was working too many hours!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I think in 'Jane' we do see a character trying to deal with a fairly 'major' everyday disappointment. Jack's reaction to not being allowed to be with Len in a dormitory (which is a fairly believeable disappointment, I think we'd all be annoyed to be separated from our friends, though I bet Len felt a bit relieved!) is rather overblown, but it does show a CS girl not just dealing with a disappointment. EBD does give her a lot more sympathy than might be expected from other examples, going out of her way to explain Jack and try and put some of the blame on Jane - for being too gushy! Another potential disappointment which never happens is Margot being left behind. Again she deals with this quite badly, sulking over the decision in a most un-CS like manner. Surprisingly, given the magnitude of the potential disppointment, I don't feel that she does get a lot of sympathy from EBD. But of course that would have involved criticising Jack and Joey for spoiling her!

Author:	JB [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Andre was abroad for the latter part the war, so wouldn't have had home leave. IIRC, Simone talks about this in Jo to the Rescue.

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Tor wrote: I was also thinking that there was a decent missed storyline in Jane over the play issue - rather than making Jack such a nasty piece of work, why couldn't the poor girl Jane had to step in for at the last minute harbour jealous resentment? EBD does seem to miss some opportunities where disappointment might have created a genuine, understandable resentment and hence a storyline - like Blossom being terrifically proud to be tennis reserve, smashing her way out of the art room in case she was needed, only to find that she was needed, but it's too late, Katharine Gordon has taken her place and had the match of her life, to universal praise. But in that case Blossom doesn't appear to have a single non-'sporting' thought and is commended by everyone for it, and gets Jennifer off punishment for locking her in, just so we get the moral about unselfishness and being a 'good CS girl'! And weirdly, you then get the opposite extreme in the later books where something tiny, that is clearly done by the school authorities (having to switch dormitories, being removed as sheepdog) launches some vitriolic resentment against a completely blameless individual. Maybe the difference is that only characters she's all along set up as 'problem' characters, like Grizel, Margot and Jack, can be allowed to respond badly to disappointment. Whereas a 'good' character like adult Simone, however much she was hurting about fertility problems while all her best friends made babies like it was going out of fashion, is 'good', so can't be allowed to show her negative feelings, in EBD's mind.

Author:	JB [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: Quote: But in that case Blossom doesn't appear to have a single non-'sporting' thought and is commended by everyone for it, and gets Jennifer off punishment for locking her in, just so we get the moral about unselfishness and being a 'good CS girl'! In Blossom's situation, i'd also have been most non-sporting about being partially blamed for the incident when she's told that she should have known the teacher wouldn't be in school on a Saturday and she should have thought before going to the art room. There is a tendency at the Chalet School to find a way of blaming the innocent party, as someone wrote earlier about Jack's jealousy of Jane.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I think, in fairness, if Blossom had thought she probably would have realised. The same could be said of many CS girls - thoughtlessness seems to be one of the entry requirements! Quite often, I think that we are more to blame for things that happen to us than we like to think, and at least at the CS they do make their girls see every angle, part of the 'spineful non-jellyfish' policy, I suppose. However, I concur that sometimes it can go a bit to the extremes.

Author:	Lesley [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Blaming Jane for Jack Lambert assaulting her is definitely a step too far! And as for Blossom - yes, perhaps she should have thought - but suppose she had and decided not to go - how much sympathy would that have got her if, in the end, it was discovered that her teacher really had sent for her? She can't win!

Author:	Tan [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
In many ways Grizel is a good example of how disappointment can affect people. She had a pretty hard life - she was not wanted by her step-mother and smart enough to realise that is why she was sent to school. It is amazing that she turned out as well as she did (although it is amazing what the love of a good doctor can do ). Naomi is really the only other fully realised character who has to deal with a significant disappointment. Then when you realise that she lost her parents in the same accident it is not surprising why she becomes 'warped'. Otherwise the rest of the characters only have temporary set-backs to deal with.

Author:	Alison H [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Maybe the idea is that if you accept disappointment with good grace then things will magically put themselves right ? Peggy agrees to leave school early to look after Mollie, but then her aunt agrees to come and look after Mollie instead. Tom Gay accepts with good grace that she won't be able to have a year in Switzerland with her friends because her parents can't afford it and then, lo and behold, Canon Gay is suddenly offered a better-paid job and Tom can go after all. If only it were that easy in RL!! I really wish that EBD'd used the standard Enid Blyton sports match storyline in Problem - Katharine or Blossom or preferably Mary-Lou twisting their ankle just before a big tennis match, and Joan heroically stepping in and saving the day!

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Alison H wrote: Maybe the idea is that if you accept disappointment with good grace then things will magically put themselves right ? Trusting God - and prayer - is another complicating factor in CS notions of hope and disappointment. I can never quite figure out what EBD's philosophy of prayer is. There are lots of times when people are encouraged to pray for some desired outcome (though it's usually someone not dying, rather than, say, passing an exam), and the school as a whole, Catholic and Protestant alike, takes it very seriously and tends to respond automatically to crises with prayer. I certainly also grew up with the idea of 'praying for an intention' and novenas and 'first Fridays' for particular intentions etc., but there was always a certain fatalism involved also, and a notion that if something didn't happen despite you praying for it, then it wasn't God's will - that prayer, while crucial, wasn't a magic solution to anything. Whereas in the CS you have Miss Annersley responding to Katharine Gordon who says she knew God would look after her parents Quote: He always does if we could only learn to trust Him. And lots of other instances of the same thing. In this instance Katharine's parents do survive, but what Miss A says sounds slightly like what my local parish priest used to call the 'coin in the slot' theory of prayer - trust in God, and the outcome will always be what you want. Which suggests, illogically, that tragedies or disappointments never happen if people trust in God, which of course doesn't work at all with lots of other events in the series where bad things happen to presumably devout people. And also clashes with the 'fatalistic' faith she admires in the Tyrol peasants - 'It will be as der lieber God wills' - which suggest God's will is not changeable by prayers...? Not attacking belief systems, only wondering whether other people think EBD's ideas of prayer are not contradictory?

Author:	Alison H [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I can understand the school encouraging people to pray when someone is ill/has fallen off a cliff/has been kidnapped by bandits/has fallen through the ice and nearly drowned, because in cases like that it helps to feel that you're doing something and there isn't really much else that you can do. And in some ways there's a lot to be said for Herr Braun accepting that his newly-decorated hotel being smashed up by bad weather was God's will : I'd have been ranting and raving and swearing my head off if that'd happened to me, but ultimately getting in a strop about things like bad weather just doesn't achieve anything! I'm just trying to think if we ever see someone asking why their parent/sibling had to get ill, or anything else that, unlike damage to a building, couldn't be put right ... other than when Naomi Elton talks about how her ideas of religion have been affected by the tragedies that she's suffered. Hilda's comment there does sound a bit like the "coin in the slot" idea, though, as you say. In that case I appreciate that she was trying to comfort Katharine and that maybe that's why she said what she did, but in general I'd've expected mistresses/parents to come out with something more along the line of "Your prayers are always answered, but remember that sometimes the answer's "no"," or "The Lord moves in mysterious ways and sometimes we don't always get we want," or words to that effect. I suppose she was in a difficult position in that particular case, though.

Author:	JB [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Alison H wrote: Quote: I'm just trying to think if we ever see someone asking why their parent/sibling had to get ill, or anything else that, unlike damage to a building, couldn't be put right .. I'm sure there are instances of someone asking why a parent or equivalent had to die and the answer is that one should be grateful they're not in pain any longer. When Jo tells Jacynth about Auntie, she says: Quote: But though you must feel lonely now, and cry too, remember, darling, that for Auntie it is well. Later, when Jacynth is talking to Miss Wilson: Quote: ‘Oh, how kind!’ sobbed Jacynth as she folded it up. ‘How kind everyone is! I oughtn’t to cry so, for I know it’s better for Auntie, and everyone is so good to me. But oh, Auntie – Auntie –’ Miss Wilson’s hand was on her shoulder, and Miss Wilson’s voice was speaking to her. ‘Jacynth! My child, don’t grieve like this! You will make yourself ill again, dear. Is that what would have pleased your aunt?’ ‘No-o,’ sobbed Jacynth, sitting up, and showing her poor little face all swollen and disfigured with tears. ‘And I will try, Miss Wilson. But oh, it’s so hard to remember!’ ‘I know it is, dear. I went through it myself when I was only twenty-two. My sister died first; then mother followed, and my father went six months later. I lost all three in one year. So, you see, I can understand.’

Author:	Cosimo's Jackal [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Alison H wrote: I'm just trying to think if we ever see someone asking why their parent/sibling had to get ill, or anything else that, unlike damage to a building, couldn't be put right ... other than when Naomi Elton talks about how her ideas of religion have been affected by the tragedies that she's suffered. I see what you mean, and I can't really think of any either. Naomi is an agnostic for most of Trials, which makes a difference in that she's not a believer struggling to contend with tragedy that suggests God lets bad things happen to good people, and I don't think the examples JB gives are quite the same thing - Jacynth isn't struggling with the fact that her prayers haven't been answered, she's already accepted her aunt's death was for the best, although she's grieving. We don't see anyone's faith in God shaken by something awful happening, like Jack's possible death, or by a wish presumably prayed for but not being granted, like Simone (presumably) wanting more children, or Elisaveta's husband's safe return.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I haven't read Highland Tins for a while, and am probably mis-remembering, but doesn't Joey go all cold, and hard and say something to do with God? I am sure there is something like that somewhere... (possibly it is actually Madge over Jo, or Jo over the Robin.... any ideas anyone - my books are packed away at the moment). As for the inconsistency in prayer, I don't think EBD's apporach is any more or less inconsistent than most peoples, so that didn't bother me (well, in that I didn't find it unusual: this was actually one of the many things which ended up with me turning my back on my Catholic upbringing and becoming an atheistically-inclined agnostic). People are often inconsistent where behaviour and - for want of a better word - theory/intellect are concerned. I suppose it gets a bit weirder when the books take on more of a didactic, preachy mode - but the early stuff, well that's just your usual comforting phrases used when tragedy happens (or is averted). Still, EBD gets on rather sticky ground with Naomi (which could read as very coin-in-the-slot).

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
All that I can find from a quick skim of the chapters is that before she opens the telegram Joey asks them to pray that she might have the strength to meet whatever has come, and then a little later Daisy says: Quote: 'God couldn't do that to Jo who's always doing all she can for other people. It wouldn't be kind and fair, and I know whatever else He is, He's both kind and fair. I also noticed Jem say at one point that he's being selfish for thinking of his loss, when he's first told of Jack's disappearance. Would this just be a symptom of the stoical male, or is this another way of dealing with disappointment - to think of everybody else rather than yourself? (after all, EBD's just been telling us that they're like brothers)

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Joey there is being the orthodox one, adult enough to know that the telegraph may tell her that her husband is dead, and that all she can do now is pray for strength to deal with the situation. (One of the most horrible moments in the entire series!) But Daisy is the one representing EBD's other version of God here - God is fair and kind and all-powerful, therefore he cannot allow this awful thing to happen to Joey, who is herself so good to others. Which is manfestly a very young or illogical thing to say, in the middle of a war. (How old is Daisy here? I lose track. Her vision of God here makes him sound rather like a CS Headmistress, who is always fair and only inflicts punishments on those who've done something to merit it.) I know what you mean, Tor, about religious faith not generally involving rigorous logic, but I think the more usual/obvious position for the 'good' CS characters to take up would be what Alison H said further up the thread, along the lines of 'God always listens, but sometimes he doesn't give us what we ask.' Which avoids the obvious inconsistency of what Daisy says, which asks us to believe that God won't let Jack be dead because Joey is good (so we're back with the problem of why bad things happen to good people, like Elisaveta's husband's death...) I suppose it just seems like a particularly obvious bit of inconsistency, especially in a series which deals a lot with illness and orphans. Apologies, everyone, I didn't mean to drag this onto theological territory. But desired outcomes are so often prayed for in EBD, I thought it was somewhat relevant, even if we're more on the ground of tragedy/averted tragedy than disappointment.

Author:	Tor [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Quote: a CS Headmistress, who is always fair and only inflicts punishments on those who've done something to merit it. cough are you 100% you mean a CS headmistress... Yes, I don't really want to drag the discussions into theology etc either, but you are right Sunglass: religious beliefs are core the CS coping mechanism when disappointment or tragedy strikes and here - as elsewhere - EBD can be fairly inconsistent. I think she'd find it hard not to be, as she doesn't really have the fundamentalist mentality (in regards to anything, except perhaps her devotion to mountain air and whipped cream), and yet is a devout Christian who (i) believes in kindly, New Testament-style God and (ii) believes in the power of Prayer. It is most realistic, I think, to turn to prayer when things are bad and there is nothing else you can do about it. You gain some comfort from that. It then also makes sense to reaffirm your beliefs when things go right - yay! Prayers worked, and God is kind. If things don't come right, well, you get the Naomi's of this world who then turn away from God. Or you can still find comfort in your beliefs by reassuring yourself that it was meant to be, and is part of some grander plan. So, however inconsistent, it makes sense to you at the time, and provides a pretty good way of dealing with a whole host of disappointments! I've no doubt that EBD would advocate such a flexible belief system if it led to a kinder, happier world. She wasn't big on conflict! She does get around the coin-in-the-slot aspect by having such an insistence on regular prayer and church going, so that you don't just pray when in need. I do think she has a naturally deterministic mind:and it certainly seems clear that her opinion of railing against one's lot in life is a Bad Thing!

Author:	Lulie [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Sunglass, without looking at the books, I think Daisy is about 15 or 16 here. When I was reading the books at a similar age I would have agreed with Daisy. Teenagers often have a black and white/good and bad view of the world and if you'd been brought up in the environment that Daisy is, you probably would think that God wouldn't let bad things happen to those who were good and kind. Reading the books now my first thought on that passage was that God isn't always kind and fair, if indeed you believe in God at all. People often tell me I'm cynical. I prefer realistic

Author:	Mel [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Doesn't EBD only allow Hilda to tell the girls to pray when she, as their maker, knows that it is going to be all right? She tells Jo to trust in God over Jack and later over Phil and several instances with the girls' accidents etc. In each case there is a happy outcome. Even with Naomi, the accident allows the doctors to go a long way towards helping her walk. Are the girls ever told to pray and tragedy still occurs? She sometimes gets round the death of characters by saying they are old, tired, sad etc which I don't like particularly, especially the young man in the Nina accident (Two Sams?)

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Tor wrote: Quote: a CS Headmistress, who is always fair and only inflicts punishments on those who've done something to merit it. cough are you 100% you mean a CS headmistress... Fair point. A CS Headmistress-like God would arbitrarily scold entirely blameless people for being heedless enough to get themselves locked into artrooms or attacked by villains. And the second commandment would end 'Especially you, Joan Baker!' Hell would consist of endlessly sewing sheets sides-to-middle in Matey's room. (Sorry, getting carried away there - let me stress I'm not mocking, I remain a Catholic, though at odds with the Vatican on several fundamental issues. Not that I imagine the Pope lies awake worrying about my orthodoxy... ) I thought of another disappointment-related thing - 'good' characters for EBD (apart from all those university places they assume they'll get) never seem to have expectations in the sense of conscious ambitions that could be disappointed. Eilunedd the Evil seems to be the only person who expected to be HG - everyone else is startled and apparently never gave it a thought, far less resented it when they didn't get a prefectship or a place on the first XI. No one ever sets their heart on being Magazine Prefect, or assumes they merit a part in a play. (Though I do always wonder why they don't have auditions instead of the staff casting them - surely in a big school there must have been girls with talents that simply weren't obvious?) So all those opportunities for school-related disappointment, like the kerfuffle surrounding the casting of the Malory Towers pantomime, where Gwendolen and Maureen both want to be Cinderella - simply don't happen at the CS. In EBD's world, because she believes that authority is basically fair and just, the best people always get chosen for the job, and no 'good' character has an inflated view of her own talents.

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
I think what's sad is that Daisy has lost both her parents and her brothers. If God never lets bad things happen to good people, what she must think of herself is terrifying. But then that is her first reaction to the news, perhaps once she'd had a little time to think it over she would start to view things differently. Quote: no 'good' character has an inflated view of her own talents. But then I think that that is part of the CS ethos - playing the game and not being a spineless jellyfish would both lend themselves to not thinking well of your own talent/ wanting to be singled out for something good. And we do get a play related storyline on at least one occasion - Yseult? I think because considering yourself better than someone else is not the done thing at the CS you wouldn't get people putting themselves forward for things unless they were acknowledged to be good, for example Nina and music; this seems to be very much of the "everyone is created equal" thought. On the other hand, the characters who really don't seem to acknowledge their own faults are either "bad" or, perversely, "good". Joey, OOAO and Len, the three major CS girls, all have huge faults which they won't really acknowledge, or at least enough to try and fix. Joey is heedless and interfering on occasion, she also tends to take against people inexplicably; OOAO is told repeatedly that she's cheeky and over-familiar, and she can boss and be nosy like nobody else!; Len is overly responsible and always seems to need to take the blame for everything. So while they won't acknowledge their own talents, it works the same for faults!

Author:	MaryR [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
Cosimo's Jackal wrote: We don't see anyone's faith in God shaken by something awful happening, like Jack's possible death, or by a wish presumably prayed for but not being granted, like Simone (presumably) wanting more children, or Elisaveta's husband's safe return. You know, when people do have a strong faith, it is often because they have gone through that sound barrier of struggling and then accepting belief in God because that is now what they believe as a thinking adult. I've had a few very bad things happen in my life, some of which you know about, including the one that began nearly two years ago, but my faith in God has never been shaken. It is the one constant that has got me through everything - even the thought of suicide last year - along with the prayers and encouragement of others. I don't blame God for any one of these things - bad things happen to everyone, and there is no point in moaning "Why me?" Prayers aren't always granted, and we have to accpt that God may say yes, no, or wait a while. So I don't see anything wrong with accepting whatever happens in EBD's world, though I do think Jo lost her faith to some degree when Jack went missing. She refused to cope with life at all, and forgot that God is there holding out His hand - even if only in the guise of Hilda visiting to read to her. Sorry, I'll stop trying to convert you all now.

Author:	Sunglass [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
ChubbyMonkey wrote: at the CS you wouldn't get people putting themselves forward for things unless they were acknowledged to be good, for example Nina and music That's what I mean, I think - that EBD doesn't think there could possibly be an undiscovered talent at the CS, hence the staff casting all plays etc is infallible. That way, the CS is able to pride itself on all its musical prodigies when they hit the big time - but how embarrassing for a former CS girl to wow the world at something if none of the CS authorities had ever identified her as remotely talented in that line ... Can you imagine the consternation in the mistresses' common room if, say, Odette Mercier became a hugely famous Comedie Francaise actress having never had a single line in a CS play, or Joan Baker, passed over for a prefectship as not the right type for leadership, ended up as Prime Minister? It strikes me, for instance, that when Grizel was music mistress, and at her most impatient and unhappy, there could easily have been someone who was so put off or frightened by her that their talent was overlooked by her - likewise Herr Laubach in the art department, who's so crusty he might have frightened off any number of prodigies! ETA: Kudos to you, MaryR, for getting through what sound like terribly tough times. It's only that EBD's position on prayer is nowhere near as nuanced as yours, I think! Probably wish-fulfilment on her part, I realise, the kind of thing you can do in fiction where you can make everything turn out all right...

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Coping with disappointment
((MaryR)) I agree completely that the CS would be shocked if someone unacknowledged became famous in their field, but I don't think that it would be likely to happen. Even if Joey didn't manage to get it out of them somehow there are so many extra activities at the CS that I think everyone would be realised at some stage. The thing with MT (I don't know about others, I haven't read a lot in the genre) is that the pantomime is very much a one-off - until then they hadn't really done anything beyond schoolwork to be able to show off their talents. At the CS life is so versatile, with things like hobbies club, that everyone gets the chance to be "noticed" in what they choose. And although the teachers are described as bad-tempered, EBD also goes out of her way to let us know that they are good. Plus the CS allows specialising, so if you felt you were good at something but being ignored, you could specialise to get people to notice you.