Characters evolving
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#1: Characters evolving Author: CatherineLocation: Newcastle upon Tyne PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:03 am
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I've just been re-reading Jo Returns and to me, Matey seemed to be a much softer character than she did in the later books. I'm not sure whether this is just my impression or because the school is much smaller and probably more of a family. It struck me most in her attitude towards Cornelia, when she comes crashing down after trying to leap round the furniture.

Also it's interesting to note how many of the characters mature as the time and books go on. EBD isn't always consistent, as we know, but it's interesting to note the confidence and maturity with which her characters speak as the years progress.

I was slightly confused by the comment about how rare it is for Miss Annersley to show affection (when she kisses Jo after the news about Mademoiselle), when this is something we see her do quite frequently as the books go on. Is this something that developed over her years as Headmistress and is it something she might have struggled to do, at first?

#2:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:18 am
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Maybe she (Hilda) changed over her years at the school. It sounds as if she had a very "stiff upper lip" upbringing - no-one prepared her for her mother's death - and maybe her character changed after years spent in a environment with close friends such as Nell.

Nancy Wilmot is another one who changes and matures a lot, although she's still fairly young when the series ends.

#3:  Author: JSLocation: Perthshire PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:28 am
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I thought the development of Kathie Ferrars over the course of New Mistress was very good. We saw her being thoroughly baited by a class at the beginning but she had it well under control by the end.

Maybe teachers on the board would have a better idea of how realistic this is, but I felt it rang true.

#4:  Author: ClareLocation: Liverpool PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:42 pm
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Kathie's experiences rang very true for me (minus the mountain rescue!).

As a teacher, I find Pam Slater interseting. She works well in the school until German is reintroduced, and she is then presented as someone very career orientated. I've seen it happen in schools - senior management issue a decree with no warning; some staff do not like it and look to move elsewhere. It's very surprising that she is the only *teacher* we see do this (not counting Miss Bubb). Thus her character causes me to ask the question of why staff joined the CS. Was it to teach a subject they loved, or was it to teach those particular pupils? I would argue for the latter.

#5:  Author: evelyn38Location: Rochester Kent PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:56 pm
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I think the way Cornelia matures is very touching. From a heedless but (once reformed by the school) genuine child, she turns into an upstanding and admirable young woman by the end of her school time.

(is it obvious that she is my favourite Very Happy )

#6:  Author: LizzieCLocation: Canterbury, UK PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:32 pm
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Clare wrote:
Kathie's experiences rang very true for me


They struck quite true for me too, with the exception that while training there was one class I just couldn't win over - I was quite jealous Kathie managed it in the end. With the class in question I was much more like Ivy Norman!

I was very much in sympathy with Kathie over the Mary Lou thing too.

I really liked the maturing of Robin. For so long she was a cut out character, kept young beyond her years, but during and after Exile she became a lovely character who I felt really blossomed.

#7:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:59 pm
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Clare wrote:
Thus her character causes me to ask the question of why staff joined the CS. Was it to teach a subject they loved, or was it to teach those particular pupils? I would argue for the latter.


To boost their chances of marrying a doctor Wink ?

I would think that - in the Austrian and Swiss books - a lot of them liked the idea of getting the chance to work abroad and see new places whilst at the same time being in a safe, familiar type of environment.

I like teenage Robin too - she's a lovely character.

#8:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:48 pm
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For the CS I think the teachers would apply in part to teach a subject, and in part for the ethos and style of the school. In the Swiss or Austrian days, there would be a wish to experience life abroad, and a fondness for languages as well.

Poor Miss Slater hired on to a fairly normal well established English boarding school, and had it change to a tri-lingual multinational school underneath her. I don't blame her for being unhappy about having to teach mathematics using her rusty high school German, between her lack of fluency with the language in general, and all the specialized vocabulary she would need for mathematics.

I like Simone's maturation as she gets older - she overcomes her early weaknesses and becomes a mature, well balanced woman. Joey matures at first, but seems to stall, or even go backwards, becoming more dependent on the school and more insular.

Robin's maturation seemed abrupt to me - she goes from being very, very young and sheltered for her age to mature and insightful in a sudden leap.

Maria Marani is an interesting case - young girl, to carefree school girl, to weighted down with sorrow, to a nervous breakdown, then a more somber adulthood until she gradually becomes more like her old self.

#9:  Author: AbiLocation: Alton, Hants PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:51 pm
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I like Robin's maturation - I think the experiences she goes through in Exile would be a very plausible reason for her to grow up so quickly. Isn't she fourteen by the second half? So she has been very much younger than her years, but I always feel that she'd probably been doing a lot of her growing up on the inside, then when something happened to bring it out she appeared to mature very suddenly. It's a shame those important months are skipped in Exile, I expect Jo does a lot of changing too.

#10:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:35 pm
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Just reading Coming of Age where the staff are discussing Cornelia's informal adoption of the Pertwee girls while their mother is ill in the US, and Biddy O'Ryan says “Just like Corney! She was all kinds of an ass when she first came to us, but she was rock-bottom decent as well.”

To which I say, hang on a minute, Biddy - if I am remembering this correctly, you and Cornelia are about the same age, she being slightly the elder, and she was among the rabble of Middles who 'adopted' you into the CS (which was misguided but ended up giving you a better life than you'd have had otherwise) when you were a ten-year-old vagrant orphan. In either case, you cannot possibly know for yourself what Cornelia was like 'when she first came to us', so quit sounding so mistressy and as if she'd been one of your pupils. I mean, I get that you've heard the story from the other staff, but it's a bit hard on Cornelia to be quoting someone else's opinion of her from decades earlier as though it's your own!

Which has a fairly tangential relationship to character evolution, but got me thinking that clearly staffroom gossip and everyone's total recall for things that happened in the Tyrol days, even at second or third hand, makes for an odd situation with regards to allowing someone to change.

And some character evolution seems to be EBDism, anyway - from my memory of early Cornelia, she was presented as a remarkably unpleasant girl, liable to pinching other people violently and other nastiness, before becoming just another madcap Middle and later a responsible individual...?

#11:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:58 pm
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Cornelia was a nasty piece of work when she first appeared - Head Girl - but after her adventure in the Salt caves it seemed to transfirm her into another crazy Middle.

#12:  Author: evelyn38Location: Rochester Kent PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:26 pm
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Sunglass wrote
Quote:
And some character evolution seems to be EBDism, anyway - from my memory of early Cornelia, she was presented as a remarkably unpleasant girl, liable to pinching other people violently and other nastiness, before becoming just another madcap Middle and later a responsible individual...?


I don't see it quite like this. Agreed, Cornelia sets out to make herself as unpleasant as possible at first, as a protest at being sent to school, but after the shock of the salt mines, and the fact that people go out of their way to rescue her, she accepts being there. Her friendship with Evadne brings out the nicer side of her character, as does her admiration for Jo and her fondness for Mdlle. I like the way she gradually gets more responsible, ending up with the experiences of 1938-40, whuch are enough to sober anyone up. As Head Girl, she is responsible and fair, and following her accident and Mdlle's death, she matures even more - which seems realistic.

#13:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:13 pm
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I suppose she would be responsible and fair. Doesn't she stay at school until she is 20+? She starts life at the school as about one year younger than Jo!

#14:  Author: AnjaliLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:18 am
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I think Mary-Lou's character develops quite a bit - she's a relatively normal, carefree, tomboyish schoolgirl in Three Go but by the end of her time at the CS she's morphed into OOAO! I actually quite liked her when she first joins the school, unlike the schoolgirl Joey who always irritated me...the adult Jo even seems a little bearable beacuse she's not in every page Laughing

#15:  Author: tiffinataLocation: melbourne, australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:18 am
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Anjali wrote:
I think Mary-Lou's character develops quite a bit - she's a relatively normal, carefree, tomboyish schoolgirl in Three Go but by the end of her time at the CS she's morphed into OOAO! I actually quite liked her when she first joins the school, unlike the schoolgirl Joey who always irritated me...the adult Jo even seems a little bearable beacuse she's not in every page Laughing


I was thinking of Mary-Lou myself. Early on she's relatively normal, but during the Swiss books changes completely. It's like EBD was trying to clone Joey Maynard. (drabble anyone?) Wink
It would have been nice to see her maturing, rather than almost finished product.

#16:  Author: Fiona McLocation: Bendigo, Australia PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:27 am
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I actually think EBD back slides with some of her characters. Grizel looks like she's maturing nicely until about Three Go where she turned back into being thoroughly nasty. Before that she was a mixture of both; had her faults and had her strengths. Afterall she did make sure Gay could teach Jacynth the cello in one of the music rooms.

Con is another one. In Theodora, she's described as becoming more awake and more adult and is finally able to keep her dreaminess under control. I like how she develops but in most books after that she's continually described as being wide awake for once and for someone who I would have made Editress of the Chaletian when she first became a prefect, I was surprised when I read that Hilda had to be persuaded by the entire staff that she was ready for that position. For goodness sake Con had always been fairly responsible and kind to everyone. When did that change?

And Margot seemed to regress completely and never allowed to reform. Yes she has a temper but the change in her from before Theodora to Theodora I almost think I'm reading about a different character. In Theodora Margot is said never to have liked Rosamund, but I've never read an instance where that's evident. She always speaks to her 'amicably'. She does have a temper, but she just seems like a normal mischievious girl. In Theodora she becomes thoroughly nasty and does start to reform in Ruey, where you can see with help from others she is sucessful for the most part with keeping her temper and working harder. By Challenge she has reverted back to being nasty and we never see the good side of her or the fun friendly side that was there when she was a child. Which for me is disappointing and makes her too two dimensional

#17:  Author: ClareLocation: Liverpool PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:40 pm
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Fiona Mc wrote:
I actually think EBD back slides with some of her characters. Grizel looks like she's maturing nicely until about Three Go where she turned back into being thoroughly nasty.


Could you not argue that Grizel's 'regression' was caused in part by not being able to get her inheritance until she was 35? She was in a job that she never wanted in the first place, and maybe felt trapped by her situation, as her stepmother was a trustee and all the trustees had to agree to release the inheritance before she turned 35. I know it is in Carola that Grizel finds out that her stepmother refused to agree, but maybe EBD was building up to that moment?

Or else the Island just disagreed with her completely Wink

#18:  Author: AnjaliLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:25 am
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It's almost as if EBD found ways and means to make Grizel more nasty by giving her more and more reason to - it's like she's the anti-heroine, definitely the anti-Jo in the early books - she's conventionally beautiful, good at maths, not imaginative, not sensitive, doesn't like sharing friendships, likes shopping more than historical buildings Smile ...it goes on!
And it's the same as she develops - Jo gets her doctor and happy home but Grizel just gets more and more obstacles in her way - despite this or maybe because of this I like her more than Jo.

#19:  Author: CBWLocation: Kent PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:25 am
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what I never really understood is how the school justified continuing to employ her.

Her pupils hated her and presumably told their parents so and It was acknowledged that she wasn't a good teacher so why on earth did a supposedly very good school keep her? I know that she was part of the 'family' but surely that shouldn't have justified employing someone who was blatantly unfit to teach.

#20:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:39 am
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I don't think it was acknowledged that she wasn't a good teacher - her pupils learnt from her, if only to stop her from sharpening her tongue on them. She was, surely, better than Herr Laubach who regularly used to reduce pupils to tears because they were unable to draw. I get the impression that she actually achieved good results with her students - she just didn't enjoy it and made sure they knew it.

#21:  Author: JSLocation: Perthshire PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:10 pm
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I agree with Lesley. I wouldn't have fancied having Grizel as a teacher, however, no matter if she got me through grade 8!

#22:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:52 pm
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I do wonder that Grizel didn't sign up for war work. Her parents couldn't forbid her from doing her patriotic duty, and she could pick up some useful skills to support herself (outside of her parents influence) after the war ended.

I have a theory that Grizel had fallen in love with Jack. She would certainly have seen a lot of him while she was teaching at the Platz, as its a small social circle. She doesn't pick up on his interest in Joey (not being the empathic sort), and is blindsided by their engagement. She then watches them settle into married bliss and have masses of children, Joey still the adored centre of attention, while she is the lonely and reviled music teacher.

#23:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:22 pm
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jennifer wrote:

I have a theory that Grizel had fallen in love with Jack.


When she finds out about Joey's engagement, she says that she can't believe that "even Jack Maynard" could change Joey's mind about marriage: the "even" bit does suggest that she thinks Jack's something pretty special Wink .

Poor Grizel: EBD really did seem to have it in for her, until the latter part of Reunion.

This has been said by other people before, but I wish that the friendship that we saw start to form between Grizel and Mary-Lou in Reunion had been developed further. Mary-Lou, having evolved from quite a nice kid into (apologies to people who like her!) a rather annoying busybody by Problem, seemed by Reunion to be becoming a nice person again. Her grief about her mother's death was very moving, and it was sad to see her feeling so alone. Also, it was good that EBD left her to pursue her studies, rather than fixing her up with a doctor at an early stage as she later did with Len. She and Grizel could have been good for each other.

#24:  Author: Kathy_SLocation: midwestern US PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:40 am
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I don't think it was ever suggested that Grizel was an incompetent teacher. She seems quite effective at getting across the fundamentals, and, as already mentioned, was very pleasant about things like Gay's teaching of Jacynth. It is true that she was never particularly patient -- I think she'd have had the same problem as a games mistress -- plus, she did seem to think the music more of a job than a joy. I think that at first, when she is working with old friends like Juliet, just being at the CS was at first enough to blot out her bitterness over the forced career. However, as time passes and most of her peers marry, she starts to worry that she could grow old in a role that's not really what she wanted from life. When she finally feels ready to leave the CS support system and try the New Zealand venture, it must have been quite a blow to find that the stepmother could still manipulate her life. Thank goodness for Hilda!

As for Mary-Lou, I see her character as going from heedless and often annoying (if basically good-hearted) middle to a genuinely caring and admirable person. That doesn't mean I always agree with her, or that she never bumbles. If she didn't, I'd probably write her off as too perfect. However, I couldn't possibly think of her as a meddlesome busybody. That's an epithet I'd reserve for people like "the Sojer."

#25:  Author: MelLocation: UP NORTH PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:33 am
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Her father didn't force her to be a music teacher did he? He insisted that Grizel spend a year in Florence studying music, which would be a 'finishing' year and sound very classy and respectable. I think Madge gave her the job out of kindness, after all they didn't really need a full-time music teacher at the Annexe as the main school didn't have one. Grizel probably accepted gladly to get out of her stepmother's way and stayed on. Was she a spineless jellyfish? Other girls don't get what they want and cope. As has been said, she could have done war work or something else as she must be underused at the CS. We never hear of her taking clases, or duties, or even coaching games.

#26:  Author: TheresaLocation: Brisbane, Australia PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:51 am
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I always got the feeling that Grizel's situation was a little different to other girls who, acting the same way, would be spineless jellyfishes. It may only be my own interpretation, it was certainly hedged about, but I thought she was actually abused and terrorised by the stepmother and had emotional difficulties her entire life as a result of it, making her stepmother's continued presence in her life much more intimidating and debilitating for her than a simple case of not getting what she wanted out of life.

#27:  Author: SunglassLocation: Usually London PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:46 pm
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Kathy_S wrote:

As for Mary-Lou, I see her character as going from heedless and often annoying (if basically good-hearted) middle to a genuinely caring and admirable person. That doesn't mean I always agree with her, or that she never bumbles. If she didn't, I'd probably write her off as too perfect. However, I couldn't possibly think of her as a meddlesome busybody. That's an epithet I'd reserve for people like "the Sojer."


Well, to a point, I'd agree, but I also think that it's the fact that EBD doesn't write Mary-Lou as a meddler - she's sympathetically constructed so that the reader is expected to identify with her and admire her over a long period of time - and she writes the Sojer (Sodger?) as a caricature of an interfering, nosy, snobbish busybody, and one who only makes a single appearance in a single book.

I suppose it's a distinction between 'flat' and 'rounded' characters in a way. But I think the fact that many of us here enjoy deconstructing Mary-Lou and refusing to take her at EBD's estimation of her as OOAO, suggest that (like Kathy Ferrars initially), there are points of view from which you could see her as bumptious, interfering and someone who manages to get away with a lot of 'cheek' because 'It's just Mary-Lou!'



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