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#1: Brats? Author: Fleury, Location: Epsom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:22 am
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sorry if i've missed a discussion about this elsewhere, i did have a look but i couldn't find one.

I've just read Joey Goes to the Oberland for the first time, and it was utterly ruined by EBD using the word brats on almost every page, it must be in the book about 80 times!
i don't think i've seen it in any of the other books, was this a sudden fad of hers?
does she do this with any other words in other books? and did 'brat' have a different meaning back then?

and by the way my SLOC says that on the GGBP cover of this book Robin has 'Massive Boobs' Very Happy

#2: Author: Róisín, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:36 am
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I do remember being annoyed by the repetition of that word in Oberland!

I think she goes through phases and every so often she grabs onto some word or phrase and doesn't let go, eg eyes as soft as pansies, brats, or the copious references to breastfeeding in Gay and Lavender. They stand out because she hardly ever uses them again after that short burst of overuse.

#3: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:06 am
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Just to prove what a sad person I am, I read through Joey Goes to The Oberland and counted how many times "brats" was used; the total is 19, which is strange as it seems a lot more. Embarassed

#4: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:56 am
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She does go through phases of using particular words a lot ... but to be fair I think a lot of people do that! I assume it was meant light-heartedly but personally I don't like the way Joey keeps using it in this book.

*Inspects cover of GGBP edition* - yep, Robin appears to have a rather large bust and a very tiny waist ... very "hour-glass" Laughing

#5: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:07 am
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It grated on me, as well.

#6: Author: Elbee, Location: Surrey

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:22 am
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I'm surprised it's only 19 times, it does seem like a lot more. (no, LizK, that's not sad, it's "Research" Wink

). I find the use of the word brats does put me off reading that book, it does spoil it, more so than eg the use of the word "moke" in Three Go, which is not as annoying.

#7: Author: Liz K, Location: Bedfordshire

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:44 am
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Thanks, Elbee, that makes me feel better!

Rolling Eyes

#8: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:57 am
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EBD needed to take her own advice (via Madge and Hilda) to vary her words a little. Smile

But I do think the connotations may have changed somewhat so that it annoys us more than perhaps it might have done the original readers.

#9: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:09 am
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I agree it’s pretty annoying because of the constant repetition combined with the fact that to modern ears at least, it’s not a terribly complimentary word. TBH it sounds a lot more like slang than some of the banned words – or is it allowed because it’s Joey? Smile

On the subject of repetition, I’m reading the early Tyrol books and Madge keeps calling Jo ‘Honey’. Admittedly it’s only about three times so far but it sounds very odd to me.

#10: Author: Karry, Location: Stoke on Trent

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:27 pm
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Didn't Mokes frequently crop up in a couple of books? It is almost as if EBD heard a bit of slang and decided that it was the "word of the book" and included it at every opportunity!

#11: Author: leahbelle, Location: Kilmarnock

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:54 pm
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I think "mokes" appeared quite a lot in "Three Go".

#12: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:16 pm
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Karry wrote:

Didn't Mokes frequently crop up in a couple of books? It is almost as if EBD heard a bit of slang and decided that it was the "word of the book" and included it at every opportunity!

Yes, it comes about 15 times in Three Go then twice in Island but I couldn't find it in any other books.

#13: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:56 pm
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Brats didn't annoy me until I read here about it annoying other people and then I started to notice it. Laughing

I still love Oberland though. Smile

#14: Author: Fleury, Location: Epsom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:04 pm
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Quote:

I still love Oberland though.

i liked it, it just would have been a better read without the repitition of brats, it kept waking me up out of the chalet schoolish world which i get in whilst reading the books! Very Happy

but i have now decided that Robin's huge boobs on the cover amuses me enough to make up for the brats! Embarassed

#15: Author: miss_maeve, Location: Buckinghamshire, UK

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:59 pm
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Róisín wrote:

the copious references to breastfeeding in Gay and Lavender

I never noticed this before....nor the constant 'brattiness' in Oberland.
I may have to go over those books again.

#16: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:07 pm
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miss maeve wrote:

Quote:

Róisín wrote:
the copious references to breastfeeding in Gay and Lavender

I never noticed this before....

I didn't either. Can someone please post some quotes from the books?
Brats in Joey Goes I did notice. I was kind of surprised since it isn't a nice thing to call your children (especially over and over again).

#17: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:19 pm
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I'm fairly sure that the breast feeding comments are only explicit in the Hardback. And I can only actually recall the one instance of it really - where Miss Bubb is giving Joey a talking to for leaving her class when Bill comes, and Stephen is crying for her. Apparently the rest of the staff did their best to calm him down, but only she would do...

#18: Author: Chris, Location: Nottingham

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:23 pm
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I also think using 'brats' completely spoils a book which I otherwise would have enjoyed. Certainly today you wouldn't use it about your own children!

#19: Author: fio, Location: swansea united kingdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:39 pm
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Chris wrote:

also think using 'brats' completely spoils a book which I otherwise would have enjoyed. Certainly today you wouldn't use it about your own children!

Do you wanna bet?! Confused

#20: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:01 am
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It's funny, it simply doesn't worry me in the slightest - I don't hear it as derogatory at all. Possibly because my mother used it, not at all meaning it in anything other than an affectionate sense.

I suppose it's a generational thing - what do the other older ones think?

#21: Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:22 am
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Well we called our eldest Bratus Bratus the common Brat as a joke. It didn't last long, and it wasn't meant to be derogatory, but just another term for kid.

#22: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:29 am
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Hmmm - I guess it depends on tone, but I can easily hear tolerant seniors telling younger children to 'come along brats' - especially if they were being a pesk.

Mind you - I always hear in my head Joey's letter to Madge about veta's captors 'he called us brats and stuff' - or words to that effect. The use of the word was meant badly in that scene!

#23: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:04 am
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It's hard to say about "brat." It did originally just mean "child," but by the time my 1936 American dictionary was published, it was "sometimes derogatory." However, I agree that it's all in the voice tones. I know plenty of parents who refer to "monsters" and "spawn" with every sign of affection.

For readers, it's probably a matter of how the term's been used in our own pasts. I admit that if I came upon the printed term cold, I'd probably take it negatively it weren't softened by circumstances. Unless of course the brats in question were bratwurst. Much more satisfying than mere hot dogs.

#24: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:21 am
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Mrs Redboots wrote:

It's funny, it simply doesn't worry me in the slightest - I don't hear it as derogatory at all. Possibly because my mother used it, not at all meaning it in anything other than an affectionate sense.

I suppose it's a generational thing - what do the other older ones think?

I never saw it as anything more derogatory than the word 'kids' - affectionately derogatory - if that makes sense. I didn't realise it had become a 'bad' word.

I think the repetition of words is inevitable, we all do it in speech and it should have been picked up by the editors. I do agree that EBD seemed to do it a lot and I suppose it was an attempt to use whatever speech forms were popular when she was writing - but she didn't have a thesaurus included in her word processor Wink

*Reminds self to run a check on latest writing for repetition of words*

#25: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:05 pm
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I always thought Joey meant it affectionately, I have to say, although I do agree it is quite repetitious in this book.

#26: Author: Caty, Location: New Zealand

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:28 am
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I haven't read Oberland in ages and can't remember it annoying me. My parents always use 'brat' in an affectionate way, so I presume I took it that way. As in a small child who's been naughty, but in an almost amusing way. The parent has to scold but secretly wants to laugh.

#27: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:55 am
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Thats not what bothered me in that book. I hardly noticed it but what did bother me and I don't know if its a generational thing but when Felicity who is 8 months old starts crying because she's hungry (as babies do) gets smacked because Jack is embarassed because she's crying. That to me seemed a bit much. Is that just me?

#28: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:19 pm
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I think the smack was because Felicity's crying was developing into a screaming tantrum, which was also upsetting Felix, wasn't it? And it was on her bottom and she would have been wearing pants and a terry nappy, so it wouldn't have hurt, and Jo wouldn't have meant it to hurt - it was just a way of getting her attention when words weren't getting through to her.

#29: Author: macyrose, Location: Great White North (Canada)

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:07 pm
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I know that in the book Felicity stops shrieking after the smack, but in reality would an eight month old understand that a spanking means to stop whatever she's doing? I would think the baby would just cry even harder afterward. And for Jo to say that Felicity's last yells were just temper - babies that young don't cry out of temper, do they? They cry because that's their way of communicating their needs, isn't it?

#30: Author: Fiona Mc, Location: Bendigo, Australia

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:21 am
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macyrose wrote:

I know that in the book Felicity stops shrieking after the smack, but in reality would an eight month old understand that a spanking means to stop whatever she's doing? I would think the baby would just cry even harder afterward. And for Jo to say that Felicity's last yells were just temper - babies that young don't cry out of temper, do they? They cry because that's their way of communicating their needs, isn't it?

That would my experience as a Nanny. Usually babies cried cos they were hungry, tired, or needed a nappy changed or for something serious. Considering Jo was fully aware Felicity was hungry it doesn't seem fair to me that she smacked her because she communicating the only she knew how

#31: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:14 am
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I did a search on those books with transcripts.

One or two uses: Head Girl, Highland Twins, Lavender, Gay, Tom, Rosalie, Three Go, Oberland, Shocks, Barbara, Does it Again, New Mistress, Problem, Coming of Age, Richenda, Tirol, Future, Feud, Triplets, Reunion, Jane, Challenge, Althea, Prefects

Three: Peggy, Bride

Four: Wins the Trick

Seven: all Cosimo and his henchmen

Twenty: Joey Goes

So it is a very noticeable jump over the other books, which is probably why it is so jarring to read. The one or two mentions in previous books seem quite natural and in most cases either affectionate or mildly annoyed, but using it so often is disturbing.

#32: Author: alicat, Location: Wiltshire

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:25 pm
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It's a funny word - I think it's one of those if YOU say it it's all right but it jars a bit when other people say it words.

and I did used to tease my little brother by calling him Brat when I discovered that the Russian for little brother was bratoushka

Laughing

#33: Author: Mona, Location: Hertfordshire

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:47 pm
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Quote:

and I did used to tease my little brother by calling him Brat when I discovered that the Russian for little brother was bratoushka

Likewise!

I never really noticed EDB overusing the word, and always got the sense that it was used affectionately. It certainly seems that she did use it much more in Joey Goes than any other book (thanks jennifer!). Maybe because it's purely a Joey and her family book there's just more scope for her to use the term.

#34: Author: Billie, Location: The south of England.

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:57 am
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I think it seems harsher than it's meant because it is an insulting word, but some people use it ironically or affectionately, yet the tone of voice doesn't come out on the page. I think it also depends on the individual person's sense of humour - my friend lived with 2 teachers last year and they were horrified when she talked about " 'Orrible little brats," but that was the way she had grown up talking about the younger siblings, pretending to despise them but actually being rather fond of them.

#35: brats Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:17 pm
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I don't think 'brats' would have had negative connotations then, though - I can't access a dictionary now, but I imagine it would have been then roughly equivalent to our 'kids', but without the Americanism - that she has Joey say it so often, and use it as a term of address to her own children, suggests EBD at least intends it in a breezy, youthful, casual. non-cloying-always-a-CS-girl kind of way.

But I quite agree it grates. 'Mokes' in Three Go also gets on my nerves. She does appear to pass through brief periods of addiction to individual words.

#36: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:34 pm
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A young woman I knew many years ago used to call her children 'little sh*ts' Shocked

- not something I would ever consider as a term of endearment! But her tone suggested otherwise and her children were young enough not to realise its negative connotations. I suspect the term would have taken on a different meaning - for both children and mother! - as they got a little older. Rolling Eyes

#37: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:34 pm
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Is it EBD herself over-using particular words, or is it EBD knowingly having her characters over-using them? It is quite normal, isn't it, for children and teenagers to pick up words and phrases and work them to death for a while before moving on to the next 'in' words. And she does periodically have Hilda/the Head Girl/whoever telling them to find some different adjectives, so she is aware that her characters do it.

#38: Author: Sunglass, Location: Usually London

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:01 pm
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Sometimes she obviously intends the repetition, as when she has various girls continually dub things either 'marvellous' or 'awful' and get ticked off for it by a passing sheepdog/prefect/mistress. But other times, you can't palm it off on the character, because it's in the narrative POV. But I suppose a certain amount of repetition is necessary in any realist fiction with a huge cast of characters - with a lot of them 'flat' characters - over a lot of novels. Hence people get associated with a single reiterated characteristic which is often almost identically described: Miss Annersley (beautiful voice); Hilda Jukes (fat, a giggler); Frieda Mensch (fair, apple-cheeked, peace-maker) etc etc. I suppose you notice it less with major or POV characters, but even then we get Joey's chorister voice and eyes like pansies a lot.

#39: Author: Travellers Joy, Location: Middle of Nowhere

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:49 pm
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JayB wrote:

Is it EBD herself over-using particular words, or is it EBD knowingly having her characters over-using them? It is quite normal, isn't it, for children and teenagers to pick up words and phrases and work them to death for a while before moving on to the next 'in' words. And she does periodically have Hilda/the Head Girl/whoever telling them to find some different adjectives, so she is aware that her characters do it.

True, but as you say, when EBD purposely has the girls over-use a word, they get told off for it. (EBD making the point that they need to vary their vocabulary.) But I don't recall any instance of Joey being pulled up for over-using 'brats'. I think EBD just didn't notice. My feeling is that she was trying to make Jo modern and young and 'hip' - to justify all the comments about what a young mother she is and how could she possibly be the mother of so many or such elderly daughters etc etc - and perhaps half a dozen times might have done that; almost 20 times can jump out at one, especially when it's a word that annoys.

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