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Being "English"
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Author:  KB [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Being "English"

Inspired by the post about wild Irish girls, I thought I would pose the question:

What are the unspoken rules that govern the life of an English schoolgirl?

I'd also be interested in examples people could provide from the CS or other books.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Cliches come to mind, like English girls are honourable or English girls play the game (usually defined as 'cricket').

Having written that it occured to me that all stereotypes are expressed in cliches!

How about English girls like playing games (as in sports?). I know this isn't and unspoken rule that governs the life of an English girl but it certainly comes across as one of the differences between 'English' and 'other' nationalities. There are lots of examples of these in the CS books - the games thing I'm linking to the time when the school was first set up and there's a discussion about how long they will spend at lessons. Someone says that 'English education is deficient' (or words to that effect) because they don't do so many hours at lessons so time is given to games etc?

I'm thinking as I go along so I'm not being very clear (now there's a suprise) ... The 'honour' thing is interesting. Why is it ever stated? Because stating that 'English girls are honourable' sets them apart from everyone else implying that everyone else is not honourable. Was that a belief that was held, do you think? Or was it more a case of using it to remind certain girls that honour is expected?

'Playing the game' comes across frequently, and not only in GO lit. Dad's Army often uses this to justify why they cannot do certain things. And yes, Miss Annersely, I am using 'cannot' correctly here! They use it as in 'it's a physical impossibility for us to do XXX because we play the game'. And playing the game and honour have some overlap, of course.

I'm reading The Right St John's at the moment and the new girl has discovered that her form routinely uses cribs, unknown to the Mistresses. Interestingly, they don't see it as wrong until the NG refuses to join in. Only then is guilt created in the others and, suprisingly quickly (!), they come to understand that it is wrong and confess their misdemeanour to the Head Mistress!!!!

That's all I can think of so far - 'play the game' and 'be honourable'. It would be interesting to hear how 'honour' is defined, either in words or behaviour ... I haven't thought about it before. It's simply been a 'feel', if you see what I mean?

I wonder, too, if it's harder to think of things that are 'natural' or 'normal' to the English if one is English? Much of one's own culture is invisible to oneself and sometimes it's hard to see what people outside one's own country might see. Although and anthropologist would say that it's only possible to truely understand a culture if you become a 'participant observer' - so you have to fully engage with it in order to understand it ... but by doing that, things might become invisible ...

Going to have some coffee now. That'll help.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Two quotes :D .

"The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton."

"I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved I not honour more." (That one's from the Civil War.)

The Waterloo one annoys me because of the attitude that anything important's done by the tiny minority of people whose families can afford to send them to schools like Eton, but school stories do tend to be about that socio-economic group, and the point is that the "rules" in school stories tend to be about playing fair, being sporting, being a good sport, being part of a team, not doing anything that's not cricket, and various other things involving sporting terminology :lol:. EBD isn't obsessed with sport itself in the way that Enid Blyton is, but the idea is still generally to play fair and put the good of the school/team ahead of your own wishes, and to be truthful and honourable.

Girls are expected to stick to school rules even when they could get away without doing so, e.g. speaking the language of the day even when there are no teachers or prefects around to tell them off if they don't. Anyone who's done anything wrong is expected to own up, lying and betraying trust (Grizel doing a runner when she's supposed to be in isolation) are severely frowned on, and sneaking is one of the worst sins of the lot. On the other hand, it isn't good to be too good: anybody who's "frightfully pi" or, worse, a teacher's pet, will be unpopular. Nice naughtiness is good!

Leadership's also a big issue, and again this is possibly because of the idea that the people in school stories are from the ruling classes. It probably comes across best in St Clare's, where they have the fagging system. & in most school stories, being emotional or being a wimp (Gwendoline Mary and the swimming pool!) are frowned on, and being brave and battling through the pain barrier are seen as positive things, but that doesn't happen so much at the CS where people are always bursting into tears and everyone's obsessed with putting health first. Sometimes that seems to extend to the strong picking on the weak, which to me doesn't fit in with fair play at all but does seem to happen a lot.

There was a move against soppiness at one point, which comes across most strongly in the Dimsie books. In earlier school stories, such as Angela Brazil's, there seem to be a lot of Grand Passions and so on, but it's frowned on in later books, and people like Alison O'Sullivan and any of the soppy girls in the Dimsie books are laughed at and seen as being silly.

Actual schoolwork never seems to be a very big issue :lol: .

Some books do show "sneaky foreigners", like Claudine and Antoinette in the St Clare's books: they aren't unlikeable, but they don't quite understand about playing the game. Like the sneaky foreigners at FIFA who awarded the 2018 World Cup to Russia when the English bid was so much better, or the sneaky foreign strikers who dive for penalties and try to get opponents sent off when of course English players would never do such things (it's quite worrying how some sections of the media genuinely do seem to believe this :lol: ).

Sorry, I've written an essay there. Very bored at work!

Author:  JS [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

In School by the River it's expected that the English girls will be stiff upper lipped over the storm - although it's the Miranian princess who says one shouldn't show fear even if one feels it, and another says it's Noblesse Oblige. Then the girls all start saying things like their father was in the Navy so they can't be 'funks'.

I'm now imagining a situation where an imposter comes to the CS pretending to be an English schoolgirl but is caught out when she blubs at thunder and cheats at sums :lol:

Author:  Tor [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I'm interested in how English schoolgirls might be represented by non English authors... are the tropes the same? I'd suspect that they wouldn't be (except possibly stiff upper lip)! Sadly, I can't think of any examples.

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

They're not schoolgirls as such, but there are those very snooty girls - Kate Vaughan and whatever her younger sister's called - in Little Women. & I know that the film's not meant to be taken seriously but the boarding school in Three Men And A Little Lady is just absurd: everyone's just so stiff! The one in Wild Child's not quite so bad, though.

Michelle Magorian's English herself, but presumably the snooty way that people look down on the Americanised Rusty/Virginia in Back Home is how she thinks the typical English boarding school girl would seem to someone coming from America.

I'm trying to think of some positive examples, but sadly not succeeding :shock: .

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
They're not schoolgirls as such, but there are those very snooty girls - Kate Vaughan and whatever her younger sister's called - in Little Women. & I know that the film's not meant to be taken seriously but the boarding school in Three Men And A Little Lady is just absurd: everyone's just so stiff!


Yes, English 'stuffiness' remains a trope in US popular culture - I noticed in the terrible film Eat, Pray, Love, recently a bit that wasn't in the (almost equally bad :) ) Elizabeth Gilbert memoir - the main character and some Italian and Swedish friends are sitting about talking about how each city has a single word that represents it, like 'New York' is summed up by 'achieve' - and all nationalities agreed that London's word was 'stuffy'. Which seemed to me to suggest the writer had never in fact been to London, or not to my bit, or to Soho after chucking-out time, or to the City during the Christmas party season, anyway. :)

The stuff surrounding Englishness is interesting in the early CS books - apart from that one politely disparaging comment about the deficiencies of English education, all foreigners (who make up the vast majority of the school, and 50% of its staff at the start) are terribly enthusiastic about 'Englishness' and trying to make the school as English as possible by playing the right kind of tricks etc - although at the same time EBD is very enthusiastic about the 'quaint local customs' and sugar oblongs etc. There's no sense that the foreign girls and the English girls don't share exactly the same sense of honour, either - and, Thekla aside, all the worst miscreants in the early books are English, aren't they?

Am I right in thinking, too, that when the Saints arrive, there's a bit of talk at their end about the disgrace of British girls being shown up by the honourable behaviour of a 'foreign' school...? And whereas in EB you'd have had a foreigner sending the anonymous letter to the King, in EBD, it's a British girl...

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
"I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved I not honour more." (That one's from the Civil War.)
... being brave and battling through the pain barrier are seen as positive things, but that doesn't happen so much at the CS where people are always bursting into tears and everyone's obsessed with putting health first.


Lucaster is one of my favourite-ever poems. I have embroidered it and it's in a frame on my bedroom wall. Ultimate proof of my Englishness of course!!!!

Anyway. That second point is interesting when it comes to the Chalet School. On the one hand you have all these fragile girls who will fall over and fade away if they so much as encounter a breath of wind, while on the other they are expected to be brave and 'battle through', hopefully without making too much reference to their own fragility.

That makes me think of something else - the girls aren't encouraged to comment on their own states of health; it's up to others to recognise their patheticness-in-health (I speak as one who sufferes from patheticness-in-health) and to either make allowance for them or to protect them from things that will make them ill.

I haven't (apart from LW and AoGG and LHotP) read any non-Enlish GO books so it's difficult to see how much of what is written is down to being 'English', or not.

Does anyone have any GO lit titles to recommend?

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I was reading the section on the English group's visit in 'Little Women' on the bus today! They do come across as terribly prim and proper - and also quite conceited ("England always wins!" being one such pronounciation). There's also the discussion between Meg and Mr Blake (? My memory gets worse by the day!) about how the English look down on their governesses and tutors so much more than in America.

There does seem to be the 'jolly English stiff-upper-lip playing-the-game' stereotype, and to a certain extent EBD does play up to this as much as she does other nationalities. But, at the same time, she creates so many believeable characters from so many nationalities among the stereotypes. (Sorry if this sounds vagueish - I don't want to impinge on the upcoming National Stereotyping discussions, but it's hard to explain without drawing comparisons!) For example, in one sense Daisy and OOAO are just typically jolly schoolgirls, but at the same time they really jump out of the page in a way that a cut-out heroine couldn't do, even while they conform to all the right aspects of the stereotype. If that makes sense?

Author:  MJKB [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I was reading the section on the English group's visit in 'Little Women' on the bus today! They do come across as terribly prim and proper - and also quite conceited ("England always wins!" being one such pronounciation). There's also the discussion between Meg and Mr Blake (? My memory gets worse by the day!) about how the English look down on their governesses and tutors so much more than in America.

I find it quite surprising how critical LMA is of the English as evidenced by the above. She even has Fred cheat at croquet! I wonder what the reaction of English readers was at the time.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

MJKB wrote:
ChubbyMonkey wrote:
I was reading the section on the English group's visit in 'Little Women' on the bus today! They do come across as terribly prim and proper - and also quite conceited ("England always wins!" being one such pronounciation). There's also the discussion between Meg and Mr Blake (? My memory gets worse by the day!) about how the English look down on their governesses and tutors so much more than in America.

I find it quite surprising how critical LMA is of the English as evidenced by the above. She even has Fred cheat at croquet! I wonder what the reaction of English readers was at the time.


I don't like it even now ...

Author:  Nightwing [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
"I could not love thee, dear, so much, loved I not honour more." (That one's from the Civil War.)

The Waterloo one annoys me because of the attitude that anything important's done by the tiny minority of people whose families can afford to send them to schools like Eton


OT but there's still a strong sense of this (especially if you listen to my favourite Marxist uni lecturer :lol: ) around today. The people who can become, say, President of the USA have all gone to the same or similar schools, or more accurately colleges - while they may have differing politics they're very often products of the same system, all know each other, etc. In NZ there's less of that in our government, but a lot of it in, say, Big Business.

Back on topic, but I love that in the early books EBD has Grizel as being "a thorough John Bull" - although it's almost presented humorously, I love the message that one should love one's country but not have a sense of superiority about it. Of course, a lot of EBD's address of nationalism is idealistic (such as the emphasis during the war that German is not the same as Nazi) but I think that that's a huge positive, especially when you remember that these are children's books.

Author:  Cosimo's Jackal [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I have always cheated at croquet, probably because I am Irish and therefore perfidious! :evil:

Yes, I like the gentle mockery/understanding of Grizel's early John Bull-ishness, too, though I'm never entirely sure I buy Joey's oppositional cosmopolitanism - it seems a bit too much for a fragile, isolated 12 year old to have acquired purely via holidays. (And how many holidays can they have had in their financial predicament, that Joey would remember?) It interests me, too, that the cosmopolitan Joey (and perhaps Madge too) aren't struck by the irony of having moved to Austria to found a school whose early local pupils are terribly keen to be as 'English' as possible! Given Joey and Madge's delighted response to local customs, food and people, I would have said they might have had some issues with the school being 'English' - but do we ever get a clear sense of where that desire to 'be English' comes from? Is it from the early Austrian pupils? Gisela reads English school stories, but would that even have been likely for an Austrian girl of her place and time?

Author:  Selena [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
Two quotes :D .
"The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton."


Apparently Wellington never actually said that :P


I think the Chalet School girls are less stereotypically English than EB girls in the way they are less physically robust and tell more tales. In the CS it seems it's ok for a form prefect to "report" a misdemeanour if an innocent girl would otherwise get the blame, but i think in EB books they would not do that - they would send the guilty girl to coventry instead.


Fitting in with everyone else and following the school's customs and traditions seems very important. For example when Thekla first arrives Joey sends for her and Thekla asks quite simply why she should run around after the older girl and she's told she should because "it is the custom". Same thing in EB with the O'Sullivan twins refusing to fag at first until they come to their senses.


Extremes are discouraged. If someone is extremely good (studies too hard - Eileen the scholarship girl in EB) or extremely bad (Emerence :twisted: ), or has a huge passion for something (Nina Rutherford & music, Eustacia & reading/solitude) that's seen as a problem - they have to learn not to be too "one-sided".

For example in an EB book, i forget which, a girl is very good at singing and a bit obsessed and so she loses her voice and has to develop the rest of her character and her academic work for a term or two before her voice comes back. (sorry too many "and"s in that sentence - hope Miss Annersley doesn't read it! :lol: )

Author:  Alison H [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

It's one of the MT books, but I can't remember which one. The girl's called Mavis. She commits the terrible sin of going off and entering a talent competition, and I think she gets caught in bad weather on the way back and loses her voice as a result - very EBD-ish for Enid Blyton, really :lol: .

I think modesty's expected too. Even if you know that you're really good at something, you should never say so. Showing off is considered very bad, even if it's something mild like Grizel saying to Wanda that she wasn't frightened of anything much. & we see Mary-Lou supposedly being stunned that she was to be HG, even though everyone'd been saying for years that she was the obvious choice in her year group.

Author:  MJKB [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
It's one of the MT books, but I can't remember which one. The girl's called Mavis. She commits the terrible sin of going off and entering a talent competition, and I think she gets caught in bad weather on the way back and loses her voice as a result - very EBD-ish for Enid Blyton, really :lol:


Its Third Year, and Mavis' greatest 'sin' is entering a 'lowly' village affair, something no 'decent Malory Towers' girl would thing of doing.

Author:  Pado [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Ironically, the Austrian girls are so keen on being "English" because they all have a bit of a crush on Ma - Madame (as Joey would put it).

Author:  mohini [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Having grown up on a staple diet of EB as a child, the English girls came across as being those who did not sneak, who were mostly interested in games, who owned up immediately without being afraid of punishment. In fact all these qualities were also found in english boys. Which made me think (now} did the Authors unconsiously or consiously tried to imitate the boys.
If my knowledge holds true, the women when they started to study against society's displeasure, tried to do what all the boys did -play study, drive, fly,
And the English habit of Stiff Upper lip, honor, not showing emotion is not only seen in girls but also in adults as can be seen in books by Agatha Christie where Poirot identifies the 2 characters knowing each other intimately because the girl calls the man by his name, or in PG Wodehouse where the boy will never back up from an engagement.
In EB the children also appear very particular about increasing their friends circle which made me very sad because I used to feel that if I meet Darrell or Fatty or Famous Five, they wont be friendly with me.
On the other hand, Joey is shown to be very friendly and ready to accept new friends. Though why she did not have many friends in England is something I could never phantom.
Are the English really like that depicted in books?

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Very interesting post, mohini ... in The Right St John's and the cribbing incident which I mentioned previously, the girls who were cribbing said that the reason they did it (apart from not having to actually do the work and still being able to get good marks, I mean!) was because 'boys do it all the time'. I hadn't particularly noticed that they were justifying their behaviour by 'doing what boys do'.

In the CS books doesn't Madge chide someone - is it Joey? - for using inappropriate language by saying 'what might be allowable for boys isn't for girls'?

So ... if mohini is right, society was changing post WW1 and this was reflected in how school-girls were behaving. Very interesting.

And yes - the Stiff Upper Lip thing. Emotion which is expressed too obviously isn't 'correct'. Comments made to me as a child include, 'don't fuss', 'snap out of it' and 'what's wrong with you?', all of which were related to an inappropriate expression of feeling at different times.

Are the English really like that depicted in books? The problem is that books like this use stereotypes and any population will be far more varied and coloured than any stereotype. But can we draw any generalities from the characaters and apply them to the English?

I wonder ... who is the most representative 'English' character in the CS books? I think Madge comes close, for me. Her organisational abilities - school and later president of the WI - come across as 'English', although it's hard to use specifics to form a general view of the English.

Does anyone have more ideas about who might best encapsulate what can accurately be termed an 'English' character?

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I don't think it's possible to say that any group of people are like that depicted in books: we can't really say that "the English" have any particular character traits any more than we can say that all French girls are sentimental, all Irish girls are wild, all Italian girls are highly-strung, all Austrian parents are strict, all Americans use weird slang or anything else.

If we go off generalities, then Madge does typify a lot of the traits of the upper-class/upper-middle-class Englishwoman of her time. I can imagine Mary-Lou being that when she was older as well - the sort of person who ran all the local committees. On the other hand, Madge is very interested in other cultures - for example, we see her coping well with the customs officials in Paris, rather than saying "Do you speak English, my good man?" at the top of her voice, which would be the stereotypical English thing to do :lol: - and chatting to James H Kettlewell even though getting into conversation with a strange man on a train wasn't really the thing to do.

There was an ongoing debate just before and after the First World War about whether or not girls' schools should imitate boys' schools, and we see a lot of that in GO books. We get Miss Wilson lecturing Stacie about how girls shouldn't sneak any more than boys should, and everyone being horrified when Thekla says that only boys should learn science, but we also get the CS introducing home economics and (in the first Dimsie book, set in 1919) a lot of waffle about how the war's shown that girls should concentrate on serious things rather than being into sport like boys are ( :roll: ).

Author:  MJKB [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I believe there is a degree of truth in most stereotypes, and the same can be said of class characteristics, if there wasn't, comedians would lose a whopping percentage of their material! It's when the stereotype maintains the superiority of one country above another that it becomes dangerous.

The CS, particularly in the early years, did a huge amount to promote internationalism. When I switched loyalty from Enid Blyton to the CS I was pleasantly surprised by the obvious respect EBD showed other nations, Prussians being the exeption! Yes we have the Wilde Orisisms of Biddly and others, but we also have just normal, pleasant girls like Claire Kennedy who could hail from anywhere. And again with the Americans, there's the slangy Evvy who contrasts stongly with the 'charming' Louise Redmond. Nowhere is there the stereotypical vulgar American of Enid Blyton's imagination. Cornelia and Evvy both have millionaire fathers but they are regarded quite highly by the main British characters, and there is no suggestion of vulgarity about them.

Alison H wrote:
If we go off generalities, then Madge does typify a lot of the traits of the upper-class/upper-middle-class Englishwoman of her time.

I agree, and Grizel's mother possibly tyifies a certain narrowmindness to be found among the rural/village middle class of her day.

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

It's interesting ... Alison said:

Quote:
I don't think it's possible to say that any group of people are like that depicted in books: we can't really say that "the English" have any particular character traits any more than we can say that all French girls are sentimental, all Irish girls are wild, all Italian girls are highly-strung, all Austrian parents are strict, all Americans use weird slang or anything else.


And MJKB said:

Quote:
I believe there is a degree of truth in most stereotypes, and the same can be said of class characteristics, if there wasn't, comedians would lose a whopping percentage of their material!


I've been thinking about this while I was shopping today - the idea that there might be certain characteristics which are more likely in one nationality than another vs. the idea that all nationalities contin a wide variation of characteristics and it's therefore not possible to generalise ... First of all, I'm not suggesting that either Alsion or MHKB were saying either of these things (although they might have been!), but their comments sort of highlight both points of view.

I heard an American speaker at some meeting or other years ago and he said that he respected the English highly because of their 'toleration' of other cultures within their own - for example, allowing people from different religions to freely practise their own religion in England. And I think that my previous comment about what Alison and MJKB said, express this kind of 'tolerance' - the idea that 'this is what I think but it might be wrong and so I bow to your ideas' kind of thing. Not well expressed at all, and I very much hope that I haven't offended anyone since no offence was intended.

While I do agree with Alison, I think it has to be tempered by MJKB's remark.

And have any of you ever played 'identify the country' at airports or on holiday? The game is simply trying to guess the nationalitiy of whoever you see, based on look or mannerisms. Sometimes it's very easy (and amusing) to find yourself correct! Years ago I was in a street market in Athens. The shop holders stood at the door and as you approached would call out to you to come in to their shop, varying their language appropriately. They seemed to be pretty good at using the correct language for the approaching tourists, except where I was concerned. I was usually judged to be French! I wish ...

Author:  Alison H [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

A-ha - other English characteristics! In order to be properly English, one must (I think with the exception of Rosalie and Margia) be useless at fancy needlework, as opposed to Austrian girls who are brilliant at it, and be slightly untidy as opposed to French girls who have the "Latin gift" of tying bows neatly and never having a hair out of place :wink: .

Someone in Morocco did ask me (in French) if I was German :shock: , but I think that was mainly because we were in an area which wasn't particularly popular with British tourists and it was obvious from my terrible French accent that I wasn't French :lol: . & one stereotype that I do find to be true is the one about standing in queues - I do tend to find that British tourists will queue whereas people from certain other countries won't :lol: .

Author:  julieanne1811 [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I'm often asked, by English and other people if I'm Australian because I (apparently) speak with a rising inflection at the end of a sentence, making it sound a bit like a question. But that's not really a 'characteristic' is it? !!!

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Based just on looks alone, on a recent holiday I was asked if I was from just about every region under the sun, except Britain - ex, who has travelled the world, has apparently never come across anyone who doesn't instantly go "English?"

I do think that stereotypes are interesting. Dara O Briain does a very funny sketch asking people to call out a little known country, then two random words and uses this to construe a 'stereotype' of the country - to highlight the vacuousness of stereotypes.

But I do think that there might be something in them. I think, as a nation, the English are quite stiff-upper-lipped (look at the reaction to the recent economic situation, compared to other European countries in a similar situation). What I think it does come down to is chicken-egg: are we stiff-upper-lipped because that's how we're always told the English should behave, or vice versa?

Author:  Llywela [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

julieanne1811 wrote:
And have any of you ever played 'identify the country' at airports or on holiday? The game is simply trying to guess the nationalitiy of whoever you see, based on look or mannerisms. Sometimes it's very easy (and amusing) to find yourself correct! Years ago I was in a street market in Athens. The shop holders stood at the door and as you approached would call out to you to come in to their shop, varying their language appropriately. They seemed to be pretty good at using the correct language for the approaching tourists, except where I was concerned. I was usually judged to be French! I wish ...

I dunno about airports, but just wandering around town I can spot French tourists a mile off! Can often identify various different nationalities by sight, in fact. Couldn't tell you what it is that identifies the French teenagers from a distance, though, they are just very distinct!

Author:  MJKB [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Llywela wrote:
I dunno about airports, but just wandering around town I can spot French tourists a mile off! Can often identify various different nationalities by sight, in fact. Couldn't tell you what it is that identifies the French teenagers from a distance, though, they are just very distinct!

A long time ago in Ireland , one could spot an Irish American tourist several miles off. They were the ones wearing kelly green polyester pants suits, with matching Aran cardigans and hats. In the height of summer. They fondly believed that, in those typical 'Irish' colours and fabrics, they would blend in with the general population! They didn't, and so they became the source of much amusement, and not a little scorn. Many of them came to our shores with romantic and naive ideas about the Irish and had their illusions shattered. Those days have gone, and I feel a degree of nostalgia for them, probably because I was young then and the world was less cynical.

Author:  whitequeen [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

A student told me this week that she'd always been told that English people were very cold. Then she watched "Love Actually" and now she doesn't believe it any more!

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Works on a regional basis too. People from other parts of the country are often genuinely surprised to find that we don't have setts (no, they're not cobbles, they're setts) rather than tarmac on our streets :lol: .

Author:  Lesley [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

And everyone considers that those in the South and from London are wimps. Works both ways.

Author:  cal562301 [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
Works on a regional basis too. People from other parts of the country are often genuinely surprised to find that we don't have setts (no, they're not cobbles, they're setts) rather than tarmac on our streets :lol: .


Or wear flat caps and say 'eh bah gum' all the time. :D

Having said that, my sister's father-in-law wore a flat cap both indoors and out, though I don't know if he slept in it! And my own father always wore a flat cap when he went out.

Regarding cobbles, I know a few streets in Halifax, where I grew up, which still have genuine setts, although we do call them cobbles. :lol:

I suspect there are many more such streets tucked away in the smaller Northern towns, even if they haven't survived in the larger cities.

Alison, I've never heard them called setts before. Is there a technical difference between cobbles and setts or is this a Yorkshire/Lancashire divide?! :roll: :shock:

Author:  cal562301 [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
Works on a regional basis too. People from other parts of the country are often genuinely surprised to find that we don't have setts (no, they're not cobbles, they're setts) rather than tarmac on our streets :lol: .


Or wear flat caps and say 'eh bah gum' all the time. :D

Having said that, my sister's father-in-law wore a flat cap both indoors and out, though I don't know if he slept in it! And my own father always wore a flat cap when he went out.

Regarding cobbles, I know a few streets in Halifax, where I grew up, which still have genuine setts, although we do call them cobbles. :lol:

I suspect there are many more such streets tucked away in the smaller Northern towns, even if they haven't survived in the larger cities.

Alison, I've never heard them called setts before. Is there a technical difference between cobbles and setts or is this a Yorkshire/Lancashire divide?! :roll: :shock:

ETA Just looked it up on Wikipedia, that fount of all knowledge and technically ours are setts, too. But we always called them cobbles!

Edited a second time to remove quotes, as I accidentally pressed quote, instead of edit! :roll: :lol:

Author:  MJKB [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

cal562301 wrote:
Works on a regional basis too. People from other parts of the country are often genuinely surprised to find that we don't have setts (no, they're not cobbles, they're setts) rather than tarmac on our streets :lol: .


This is very much the case in Ireland too, Alison. By and large Dubliners regard anyone living outside the capital city as 'culchies'. This drives all other city people, especially those from the self proclaimed 'real' capital of Ireland, Cork, up the walls. We have, of course, a political North/South divide, but also an economic west/east divide, the east of the country being generally more prosperous, the west more ruggedly beautiful and the Midlands as dull as ditch water. Then there are chief characteristics that identify certain counties: Cork people are 'cute hoers', Galwegians are 'cuter hoers' and Dubliners are just 'hoers'. Cavan people are regarded as 'mane (mean) and the following is often quoted to illustrate this: "You're on the main road to Cavan and the further you go the mainer it gets..." My mother, a Cavan woman, refuted this hotly all her life, but claimed that all people west of the Shannon would 'build houses in one ear and let flats in the other... and so it goes on.

Author:  RroseSelavy [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
Works on a regional basis too.


... and we midlanders look on in amusement as northerners and southerners keep the divide going :lol:

(On a tangent, SLOC maintains that the north begins once you pass the Dorset ridgeway).

Author:  cal562301 [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

RroseSelavy wrote:
Alison H wrote:
Works on a regional basis too.


... and we midlanders look on in amusement as northerners and southerners keep the divide going :lol:

(On a tangent, SLOC maintains that the north begins once you pass the Dorset ridgeway).


Believe me, Rose, the north/south divide is nothing compared to the Lancashire/Yorkshire divide! :lol:

And if you in Oxford, count yourselves as Midlanders, then I must be further north than I thought, although we're only 30 minutes by train out of London.:shock:

Author:  Alison H [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

EBD doesn't particularly "do" English regions, does she? We're never even told where Jem's family come from, and the Bettanys never talk much about Devon or Cornwall (maybe because they weren't sure which one of them Taverton was in :lol: ). There are quite a few semi-important characters - Gay, Jacynth, the Rutherfords - who are from the NE, her own neck of the woods, and some of the surnames she uses (Richardson, Elstob) are particularly common in the NE, but it's never really an issue. I don't think we're told where most of the mistresses are from either.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Oh, it must be in Devon - you wouldn't get people that normal in Cornwall! :wink: (Yes, all you up North think you've got divides, you've got nothing on Devon/Cornwall! I mean, one of them felt the need for their own liberation army, and they still have their own language...)

Author:  Jennie [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

The real North/south test is whether you call them crumpets or pikelets.

Author:  Alison H [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Well, there's one famously English trait which I think nearly everyone in England is displaying at the moment, and that's being obsessed with the weather!

It seems to be an Austrian trait in the early CS books: Bernhilda always seems to know what the weather's going to do. & doesn't EBD say somewhere that Scottish people are particularly good with directions? The weather obsession is traditionally associated with England, or maybe the UK as a whole, though :lol: .

Author:  Lulie [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

I, apparently, look Russian (and no I don't have a cute little fur cap!)

I always joke that, being half Yorkshire half Scottish I haven't got a chance of being generous :lol: and, Jennie being confused I call them pikelets if they're flat and crumpets if they're an inch thick. But I always confuse people by calling bread buns "teacakes". To most folks teacakes are the curranty things you have toasted. Where I come from they're "currant teacakes"!!

Author:  Jennie [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

As long as they're dripping with butter, who cares what they're called.

Author:  RroseSelavy [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

cal562301 wrote:
And if you in Oxford, count yourselves as Midlanders, then I must be further north than I thought, although we're only 30 minutes by train out of London.:shock:


Ah no, Oxford is definitely the south! I'm a Shropshire lass by birth/upbringing. Just saw that I had a pm from you - reply imminent :D

Author:  Sarah_L [ Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Lulie wrote:
I, apparently, look Russian (and no I don't have a cute little fur cap!)

I always joke that, being half Yorkshire half Scottish I haven't got a chance of being generous :lol: and, Jennie being confused I call them pikelets if they're flat and crumpets if they're an inch thick. But I always confuse people by calling bread buns "teacakes". To most folks teacakes are the curranty things you have toasted. Where I come from they're "currant teacakes"!!


I've never heard of bread buns being called teacakes and I come from the next town to Lulie! To me, the only teacake is the curranty thing you toast. I do use the same definition of crumpets/pikelets though.

Author:  MJKB [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Good Lord! You're worse than the Irish - what on earth are bread buns?

Author:  jayj [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Lulie wrote:
But I always confuse people by calling bread buns "teacakes". To most folks teacakes are the curranty things you have toasted. Where I come from they're "currant teacakes"!!


We called them teacakes too (Lancashire Pennine area). And oh, the traumas it has caused since moving down south. I have a nervous breakdown whenever I'm traveling down south with my dad, who often wants to order a 'bacon teacake' and I desperately have to translate this into something intelligible to southerners...and there was the unfortunate time when I sent the boy (Londoner, v. middle class) I was seeing to the shop to buy some teacakes so we could make sandwiches, and he, poor boy, came back with these chocolate covered monstrosities! Just one of the many reasons that relationship was doomed to failure....

Author:  Lulie [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Sarah_L wrote:
Lulie wrote:
I, apparently, look Russian (and no I don't have a cute little fur cap!)

I always joke that, being half Yorkshire half Scottish I haven't got a chance of being generous :lol: and, Jennie being confused I call them pikelets if they're flat and crumpets if they're an inch thick. But I always confuse people by calling bread buns "teacakes". To most folks teacakes are the curranty things you have toasted. Where I come from they're "currant teacakes"!!


I've never heard of bread buns being called teacakes and I come from the next town to Lulie! To me, the only teacake is the curranty thing you toast. I do use the same definition of crumpets/pikelets though.


That's because I'm originally from near Holmfirth (Yorkshire Pennine area)

Author:  jayj [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Aha, a Pennine-shaped pattern is starting to emerge, methinks.

Author:  sealpuppy [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Alison H wrote:
EBD doesn't particularly "do" English regions, does she? We're never even told where Jem's family come from, and the Bettanys never talk much about Devon or Cornwall (maybe because they weren't sure which one of them Taverton was in :lol: )


Could be both? There's a village in the New Forest called No Man's Land (yes, honestly), and the pub's front doorstep is in Hampshire and the rest of the pub is in Wiltshire. Before boundary changes there were two bars, one in each county, so they'd call Time in one and move next door for half an hour, according to local by-laws.

The Bettany home could be the same: front door Devon, back door Cornwall. I'm sure EBD assumed we'd understand that perfectly logical situation. :)

Author:  cal562301 [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

Lulie wrote:
I, apparently, look Russian (and no I don't have a cute little fur cap!)

I always joke that, being half Yorkshire half Scottish I haven't got a chance of being generous :lol: and, Jennie being confused I call them pikelets if they're flat and crumpets if they're an inch thick. But I always confuse people by calling bread buns "teacakes". To most folks teacakes are the curranty things you have toasted. Where I come from they're "currant teacakes"!!


Being of mixed Yorkshire and Scottish ancestry myself, I totally agree with you Lulie.

Except that I'm not sure I look Russian!

Author:  lavender [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

jayj wrote:
Lulie wrote:


We called them teacakes too (Lancashire Pennine area). And oh, the traumas it has caused since moving down south. I have a nervous breakdown whenever I'm traveling down south with my dad, who often wants to order a 'bacon teacake' and I desperately have to translate this into something intelligible to southerners...and there was the unfortunate time when I sent the boy (Londoner, v. middle class) I was seeing to the shop to buy some teacakes so we could make sandwiches, and he, poor boy, came back with these chocolate covered monstrosities! Just one of the many reasons that relationship was doomed to failure....


How did he think you were going to make sandwiches with
Chocolate teacakes?
In the Peak District, we say bread cobs.

Author:  ChubbyMonkey [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Being "English"

sealpuppy wrote:
The Bettany home could be the same: front door Devon, back door Cornwall. I'm sure EBD assumed we'd understand that perfectly logical situation. :)


Aah, no, sorry, not possible! You couldn't build a building through the ten foot fence right the way along the border, and the Border Police probably wouldn't like it much either :lol:

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