The CBB :: View topic - Adult men, infant women

I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound :lol:

, a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much

Quote:

I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound :lol:

, a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much

Isn't there some strange fad in the US recently where women have to agree with and do everything there husband tells them to do, and do all the house stuff and kid stuff as well? I think it was based on some book about how to have a happy marriage, but I can't for the life of me think what it is called. We are talking high powered career women here as well. Madness!

I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound :lol:

, a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much ...

Even Jem, at his most bossy, is better than Darrin Stevens! :shock:

(And Darrin isn't even a doctor!)

I don't get why Joey and Madge reacted the way they did in the case of the Elsie Novel. Maybe because Jem was outside the CS and sister relationship and could be relied on to tell it how he thought of it?

And this was supposed to be Adult Men, Infant Women.
I'm a bit of a der-brain at times. And I don't know how to change it ..!

ammonite wrote:

But why should he think anything about it anyway - more than anyone else, I mean? I simply can't imagine a 'great doctor', with all the responsibility of starting the San and so on, having time to hold valid views on such comaparative esoterica. The way it's written I get the feeling that Jo and Madge are waiting, holding their breaths, for the Great Doctor to make his Great Pronouncement ...

And surely Jem is no less entitled to have an opinion on it than anyone else? I'm a doctor, and I certainly have time to hold views (which I hope are valid!) on lots of things, children's literature included...

and I suspect would prove to be more useful than a slightly limp Dick!

Maybe this is a class thing or even a regional thing, but I've got this image of the 1930s as a time when men thought they were in charge but in reality it was women who were in charge

. I can imagine Mollie Bettany, or even Gisela, saying "Yes dear, of course dear," to their husbands and then going off and doing things the way they themselves thought was best instead, but I can't really see Madge or Joey doing that.

I don't know about Mollie. Even though repatriating your children to a more 'suitable' climate was well-established for the Raj, the little glimpse we get in New House of her misery at leaving her children in Tyrol (and leaving the baby at this point seems to have at been Jem's instigation, as if he's somehow also inside the Bettany marriage) makes me think she doesn't have a great deal of say - I also find Limp Dick rather uncharacteristically macho and dismissive of his wife's emotion in that scene with Joey and the typewriter. Plus I've always thought the reason they kept having babies was poor Mollie desperately trying to make up for the absent children thousands of miles away in the Die Rosen nursery...

But then EBD is full of women following their husband's careers around distant bits of the world, as though husband automatically trumps children.

or, to mix it up even more, could this be an extension of one of EBDs other favourite themes: of parents needing their daughters...

Thus rather than the husband's needing to be mothered, implying fragility in the man, their need for their wife is merely analogous to a mother (like Madge, for example) needing her daughter. So the woman can still be cast into an 'infant' role, in this context.

Probably going way overboard with the analysis here, but it is fun

And several times (although I can't think of a particular example just at the moment) girls are sent to the CS because the maother has to go away with her husband, who wouldn't be able to cope alone. Doesn't this happen to Amy, who's at the Annex and whose father is a jounalist and has to go to some eastern block country? Sorry - can't be more specific. A case of fragile men, perhaps, but men whom only stay in the background. It does seem odd that an adult male is so unabe to take care of himself that they have to park the children so the wife can go along as some kind of mother for her husband ...

Do we ever see a married woman challenge her husband or disagree with him resulting in a change of mind on the male character's part?

And if you lived in the Czech Republic you would see this idea that "a man can't cope on his own" in RL -it's to be found in all the women there, even quite young ones, who, if they go out even just for the day, make sure there is a meal ready and waiting for him and numbered meals with full written instructions in the freezer if they are to be away for more than one day.

But then EBD is full of women following their husband's careers around distant bits of the world, as though husband automatically trumps children.

Sunglass wrote:

But then EBD is full of women following their husband's careers around distant bits of the world, as though husband automatically trumps children.

I always understood that was how society would have regarded it at the time - that husband did trump children, and for a wife to follow her husband around the world would just be taken for granted: she was his wife, so of course they would travel together.

There's a bit in one of the books, I forget which - during the Plas Howell years, I believe. Someone observes that as much as Joey loves her children, she loves Jack more - and this is presented as A Good Thing, only right and proper. It's that patriarchal thing again - the man is the head of the house and therefore should come first in all things. Children have their place in the pecking order, but they are a-ways down the line, much less important.

The idea that once you have children they should be the centre of your universe and their needs placed ahead of all other concerns, that's a much more modern concept, as I understand it.

Children have their place in the pecking order, but they are a-ways down the line, much less important.

The idea that once you have children they should be the centre of your universe and their needs placed ahead of all other concerns, that's a much more modern concept, as I understand it.

and I suspect would prove to be more useful than a slightly limp Dick!

Llywela wrote:

My only consolation for what I see going on round me is that a) it hasn't yet happened in the Czech Republic and b) the pendulum will swing back; it always does.

I think that the view that children should come first is a fairly new development. For most of history it has been the mother or father who is the most important person to their partner, and this would secure the marriage and therefore the children, who could rely on their parents. I also think that this is a rather dangerous view to hold these days ...

I'm old enough to look back with nostalgia to the days when this wasn't the case. I don't, of course, want to go back to the days when children were seen but not heard but I do think the pendulum has swung much too far in the other direction now.

I don't believe we are doing children any favours by making them the be-all and end-all, nor is society any the better for it. Rather the opposite in some respects.

Sunglass mentioned Carola Johnstone and Katherine Gordon. I didn't think too much about this when I read the books as a child but whenever I read Carola now, it makes me angry. I can understand that sometimes your job requires that you can't take your children with you but they seem to have given Carola no thought at all in the time they were away.

JB wrote:

To go slightly more back on topic to the idea of infantile women - :

EBD genuinely seems to think it's better for both parents to depart and send the child to school, rather than leave it in the hands of a mother who doesn't raise it properly alone! :shock:

Cosimo's Jackal wrote:

JB wrote:

To go slightly more back on topic to the idea of infantile women - :

Cosimo's Jackel - I mean 'infant' not 'infantile' ...! I was trying to find the oppsite to 'adult' and only came up with this. But this makes me think - are the women being 'infantile' as well as being treated like children by the 'adult' men (which is what I meant)?

I think that at some point EBD did realise that she'd weakened/infantilised Madge, and tried to change things. We don't see it, because by then Madge was out of the CS picture and Joey was the dominant character, but we're told that Madge is now the head of the local WI, very involved in organising local fundraising events, and that sort of thing. I can imagine her being rather like Audrey fforbes-Hamilton in To The Manor Born, only hopefully not quite as bossy :lol:

. Joey actually says that Madge has stopped being "that sweet woman, Lady Russell," and gone back to being the sort of person she used to be when she was younger (presumably before she met Jem!).

I'd like to know what prompted EBD to do that, especially as Madge was pretty much an off-stage character by then. Did she realise she'd gone too far, or did people keep remarking on it?

Also, was there ever any reason given as to why Madge had 'gone sweet' ? Was it all the worry over Josette/Sybil, etc, or something ? (I very vaguely remember the idea of Canada having done Madge good, but I could be muddling up characters and all sorts)

A very interesting point in view of EBD's own childhood, brought up by her mother and grandmother. A similar situation to Mary Lou who is the character who came to mind as someone raised successfully without a father. Although, in her case, the bringing up seems to have been as much (if not more) by her grandmother than her mother and Nellie Dyer seems to have been a far stronger character than Doris Trelawney.

I always assumed that the way Joey talked about Madge's change - her having become 'that sweet woman, Lady Russell' - suggested it was less to do with motherhood than with being seen/seeing herself as an attribute of Jem and his successful career, and the way their family life keeps having to accommodate him going abroad to do Important Great Doctor stuff, with her along without a role of her own other than wifely sidekick.

Poor EBD, I bet she'd have given anything to be able to let go, however briefly, but she had to keep going with the books and her school and her mother and anyone else who depended on her.

I always wondered what exactly a "sweet" woman is and does to make all of EBD's sweet women so weak. I think the only sweet woman we see up close is OOAO's mother, and her biggest problem seems to be that she is incapable of saying a good firm "no" to her daughter. But I can't imagine Madge being so easily convinced out of her decisions by her own children. So - what makes a sweet woman?

I always took EBD's 'sweet" to describe a perfectly pleasant woman - when there wasn't much else to her other than being perfectly pleasant. So not a negative thing in itself, but an indicator that there's no more interesting way to describe her than 'sweet'. If that makes any sense...

In School At, we see Madge turning to Herr Marani for help when she gets the letter saying that the Carricks have dumped Juliet on her.

There's that lovely Christmas in Innsbruck, where I always got the impression that they wanted to treat her as one of the children and take away her responsibilities for a few days, while at the same time treating her as an adult fully able to think for herself. How lovely it must have been for her to have a break from being the Head of the Chalet School!

The "man's advice" comment always made sense to me. In that age and culture, it would of course be a man who would be best suited to know what to do next, with the right contacts and things, and would probably also be better at protecting her business than a woman! Plus, he happens to be there.

I think it's her characteristically tactful way of saying she wants to talk things over with someone other than Mademoiselle, someone who's had a bit more experience of the world. (I think it's one of those occasions where Mademoiselle seems out of her depth, not surprisingly.) Not wanting to hurt Mademoiselle's feelings by making her feel lacking in savour-faire, she says she needs male advice.

Don't forget that when the first books were written, not all women even had the vote - it was only women over 30 who were granted it in 1918, and the universal suffrage we take for granted today didn't come in until 1928. (And, indeed, in many European countries much, much later - in France not until 1944, in Switzerland not until 1971, even!).

And it is only very, very recently that women have been able to take out a mortgage without a male guarantor, or generally be seen to cope without a man. Madge, particularly, and to a lesser extent Joey, would have been brought up to believe that they couldn't cope without a male protector, and although this is manifestly not true in Madge's case, she still half-believes it!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Adult men, infant women
EBD was able to create extremely strong, believable characters and in the Chalet School books, which my mother is steadily reading in turn, it is Jem who evokes a strong reaction from my mother. When we discuss ‘where have you got to?’ she can become almost unable to speak in her indignation of how he acts. She is just reading Jo to the Rescue and this is how the conversation goes: Me: ‘Where have you got to?’ Lou: ‘I can’t believe it!’ That Jem, he – he- he- ‘ (becomes almost inarticulate in her indignation) Me: ‘What?’ Lou: ‘I can’t stand him. All those women on there own, coping without a man around and as soon as he comes he starts sending them to bed!!!! And –and-and’ Me: Laughs. Lou: ‘It’s ridiculous! They are adults and he treats them like children! AND THEY LET HIM!!!!!!!!!’ Lesley Green, in ‘Hilda Annersley, Headmistress’, has obviously picked up on this character trait in a doctor (of course!) too, and she deals with it firmly. When Miss Annersley is injured and in hospital (Gay from China) Jem rushes to the cottage hospital where she is taken. In Headmistress Hilda deals sharply with her doctor having ‘corridor’ conversations with Jem, and she tells him that he is not to do this any more. In Gay, Madge and Joey are anxiously awaiting Jem’s call, when he will tell them what has happened and what the longer-term outcomes might be. This is understandable – Hilda is a woman on her own and one might hope that a qualified friend would jump in to help if one was unconscious and one’s other close friends are also injured and so hors de combat. However, Jem being Jem can’t let go and even when Hilda or her other close friends might be able to deal with any issues, continues to speak to the Consultant, without the permission of her, the patient. Like not being able to decide whether or not to have hale-and-hearty or pale and listless heroines, I think that Elinor was also unsure of whether or not to have stroing independent women, or women who were utterly reliant on the men around. We have 'great' doctors ('doctors' being automatic authority figures at the time), who can pronounce on everything and be believed without question, even if what they are pronouncing on is way out of their realm. Think of when Jem (in Jo of) reads Jo's Elsiebook - first, let's assume that the 'great doctor' has some odd personal interest in such books (We have to assume this to give his comment any validity at all). He then 'prophesies' that one day Jo will write something really worthwhile. Jo has never taken her eyes off of his face once, and Madge is listening with the same tense eagerness. Why? Jo's eyes widen and she becomes flushed and breathless ... I have tried to think of an equivalent modern situation and am unable to find one. We no longer have such 'great men', certainly not doctors, who can only pronounce within their own territory and even then not always correctly. I do think that in the past doctors were imbibed with omniscience, and this certainly spills over into the CS books. But it does not sit easily with the view also expressed that girls should not be 'spineless jellyfish' ... The initial part of this post might be published in the FoCS magazine at some time, and might not.

Author:	Alison H [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Nice one, Lesley (sorry, I've never managed to get hold of a copy of your book) - I love the idea of Hilda telling the doctors off! One that really winds me up is when a parent/guardian - I think it's Gay Lambert's brother - writes to Jem about a school issue. What on earth did it have to do with Jem?! &, in the same book, Jack Maynard, whose only connection to the school is being the owner's brother-in-law, reprimands Miss Bubb, the acting head, for saying that a pupil had to stay in. Furthermore, he does so in front of the pupil concerned! I'm trying to think if it's just doctors, just husbands or men in general. Mr Denny and Herr Laubach get away with being very rude to the girls, but I don't think we ever see them bossing people about. & Dick Bettany is completely the opposite: in the very first chapter of the series, it's made clear that Dick generally does as Madge tells him. Having said which, he later writes a letter to Madge (re Captain Carrick) in which he says that women are helpless and need looking after, but I think he's all talk - I never get the impression that he bosses Mollie around. In fact, maybe it's just Jem and Jack! There was a lot more respect for doctors, religious ministers, the police and anyone else in a position of authority in CS days, but the way the doctors order women about and the women just take it is certainly "interesting". Especially in the case of Madge, who started off as such a strong character. I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound , a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much ...

Author:	Margaret [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Julieanne1811, I do hope you post this in the FOCS mag.

Author:	Saffronya [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Quote: I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound , a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much Isn't there some strange fad in the US recently where women have to agree with and do everything there husband tells them to do, and do all the house stuff and kid stuff as well? I think it was based on some book about how to have a happy marriage, but I can't for the life of me think what it is called. We are talking high powered career women here as well. Madness!

Author:	ammonite [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
but in the Gay situation isn't Jack talking in the role of Chalet School Doctor, which I imagine he shares with Jem, while the school is in England and carries on when the school is in Switzerland. I wonder if Jem still goes to the CS branch in Carnbach, when a medical emergency arises? But to get back on topic slightly, I think it was the done thing then to not discuss the illness with patients if close family were around, I'm not sure about close friends. Qouting a situation from real life, when Nancy Mitford was dying of Cancer, her sisters all knew she had a fatal diesease and didn't tell her the extent of the problem, in an effort to prevent her from worrying. It did cause problems amongst the other sisters, as Jessica (I think) thought she ought to be told whilst Deborah and Diana were for not telling her and in the end prevailed. I don't get why Joey and Madge reacted the way they did in the case of the Elsie Novel. Maybe because Jem was outside the CS and sister relationship and could be relied on to tell it how he thought of it?

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Adult men, infant women http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7332

Author:	Kate [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Saffronya wrote: Quote: I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound , a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much Isn't there some strange fad in the US recently where women have to agree with and do everything there husband tells them to do, and do all the house stuff and kid stuff as well? I think it was based on some book about how to have a happy marriage, but I can't for the life of me think what it is called. We are talking high powered career women here as well. Madness! Yes! The Surrendered Wife. It's a bit weird.

Author:	Lesley [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Well I couldn't have my heroine taking that from a mere doctor, now could I? Can understand your Mum being so indignant Julieann - I mean EBD goes out of her way to create strong female characters - starting with Madge herself and then moving on to Joey and the Heads et al - but they all seem to bow to the authority of the DOCTOR - even when he doesn't actually have any authority. As for the scene in my book - I could see Jem doing exactly that and asking for information about Hilda - but I could also see exactly how Hilda would react when she found out!

Author:	sealpuppy [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Alison H wrote: I suspect that EBD secretly yearned to be swept off her feet by a handsome doctor who'd take care of all her problems for her. Nice though it might sound , a few weeks of being ordered about and dosed and I think it would get a bit much ... I agree! I think she had a rose-tinted view of relationships with men and would have been most annoyed to have to submit to their dictates. Not quite off topic (but nearly): Bewitched, which I adored when it first arrived on British TV, and still love to watch the repeats because Elizabeth Montgomery was so lovely (but now I snarl at the tv) - had the most appalling view of women. Darrin was self-righteously indignant every time Samantha twitched her nose, and the whole premise of the show was that she must conform to his view of how women behaved. (OK, she nearly always got the better of him, but the underlying feeling is there). Even Jem, at his most bossy, is better than Darrin Stevens! (And Darrin isn't even a doctor!)

Author:	JB [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
sealpuppy wrote: Even Jem, at his most bossy, is better than Darrin Stevens! (And Darrin isn't even a doctor!) If I were Samantha, i'd be twitching my nose and sending Darrin far, far away.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
ammonite wrote: I don't get why Joey and Madge reacted the way they did in the case of the Elsie Novel. Maybe because Jem was outside the CS and sister relationship and could be relied on to tell it how he thought of it? But why should he think anything about it anyway - more than anyone else, I mean? I simply can't imagine a 'great doctor', with all the responsibility of starting the San and so on, having time to hold valid views on such comaparative esoterica. The way it's written I get the feeling that Jo and Madge are waiting, holding their breaths, for the Great Doctor to make his Great Pronouncement ... I have submitted the thing to FoCS but just have to wait and see the outcome. And so good to hear from the author herself, Lesley - your book provided much entertainment when I was snow-bound at my mothers for 9 days!

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
And this was supposed to be Adult Men, Infant Women. I'm a bit of a der-brain at times. And I don't know how to change it ..!

Author:	Lesley [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
julieanne1811 wrote: And this was supposed to be Adult Men, Infant Women. I'm a bit of a der-brain at times. And I don't know how to change it ..! Go back to your original post in this thread and click edit - you can then change the title.

Author:	abbeybufo [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
julieanne1811 wrote: And this was supposed to be Adult Men, Infant Women. I'm a bit of a der-brain at times. And I don't know how to change it ..! I've done it for you, Julieanne [for future reference, you just need to go back to the first post of the thread and edit it there - then it shows in the list of threads correctly - Ruth with mod hat on] ETA oops, cross-posted with Lesley - but anyway it's done now, and you know for the future

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Thank you Lesley and abbeybufo - I did exactly that and found it was changed, read the last post and saw that abbeybufo had done for me as she said ...

Author:	Cel [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
julieanne1811 wrote: ammonite wrote: I don't get why Joey and Madge reacted the way they did in the case of the Elsie Novel. Maybe because Jem was outside the CS and sister relationship and could be relied on to tell it how he thought of it? But why should he think anything about it anyway - more than anyone else, I mean? I simply can't imagine a 'great doctor', with all the responsibility of starting the San and so on, having time to hold valid views on such comaparative esoterica. The way it's written I get the feeling that Jo and Madge are waiting, holding their breaths, for the Great Doctor to make his Great Pronouncement ... I don't find this bit so strange (although I do agree with the overall point, Jem seems to feel that he has authority in every area, and most people agree with him, which is worse) - I think that for Joey, having just tried her hand at writing for the first time, the opinion of any significant adult is going to mean a lot to her, and therefore also to Madge. And surely Jem is no less entitled to have an opinion on it than anyone else? I'm a doctor, and I certainly have time to hold views (which I hope are valid!) on lots of things, children's literature included...

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant children
Cel wrote: And surely Jem is no less entitled to have an opinion on it than anyone else? I'm a doctor, and I certainly have time to hold views (which I hope are valid!) on lots of things, children's literature included... Of course that is so ... but simply holding an opinion is not what I get from this particular event. I get the feeling (and maybe I'm completely wrong - that would be nothing new!) that it is his place as a doctor that gives what he says validity. And in the first place it's the fault of Madge and Joey to give him such precedence. If they didn't react to him in such a way nothing he said would have such impact. His character takes his cues from them first. Having said that, Matey, too, reads something of Jo's (Cecily) and is scathing about it. But when she reads it I don't get the feeling that Jo is waiting with bated breath for her opinion.

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Jem does rather seem to be the Great Authority on everything. IIRC, it's his idea that Dick and Mollie's kids should live with him and Madge rather than in India (although he might've wished he'd kept his trap shut when they produced 4 kids in 5 years!). He is apparently also a financial expert: we're told in Exile that Gottfried avoided losing money when he left Austria because Jem'd advised him to transfer his money into British and American stocks. He even gets prior warning from a friend in the know that Germany is about to invade Austria, which is quite worrying really . & just generally he seems to be one of those upper-crust public school types who always have contacts in any sort of area. Re the book, it was probably the first time any adult other than a teacher or relative had read Joey's writing, so she might have reacted like that with someone else as well, but EBD certainly sets Jem up as a figure of authority. I wish she hadn't, because IMHO it goes too far. He's so nice sometimes - being pleased about Marie and Andreas getting married, and telling Madge she doesn't need to lose weight for Peggy's wedding and she looks fine as she is - but he's just way too authoritarian at other times. His own dad was probably very authoritarian too: anyone who'd cut their own daughter off for marrying a man who didn't meet with family approval clearly had some major issues ...

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Madge is definitely an adult in her own right until she marries, when she suddenly becomes 'not strong, you know', and breathlessly enthralled to insufferably bossy Jem. (I mean, the loss of strength could be related to problems of pregnancy, which would be new, but the way Joey and others say it, they seem to mean that she's constitutionally fragile, and that everyone knows this - whereas there's no indication she was anything other than strong as a horse, and unusually independent-minded and strong-willed, before her marriage, which seems to have made her much more dutiful and submissive. Which drives me crazy, but then I've always loathed charmless Jem... ) Whereas Joey, on the other hand, has Jem as Brother/Father/Medical and Literary Authority for most of her teens, and is handed over to Jack as Medical Authority on her marriage - almost literally, with Jem telling Jack towards the end of their time in Austria that he should marry Joey immediately so her can look after her. (And as someone else said up the thread, there are some astonishing subsequent conversations between Jem and Jack concurring on the need for sedating Joey...) So Joey, after her marriage, goes on being fragile and needing to have her health policed by a male family member who is also a medical authority, because despite becoming all wise and womanly after her marriage, having a successful writing career, and eleven children, she never becomes an adult in the sense that she manages her own health and her tendency to overdo things. No so different in some ways to Phoebe's marriage to her own doctor - after all, Jack must have been hearing Joey's health discussed from the earliest days of the San... But I just think for EBD that medical authority is the ultimate one, under God. Anytime she has to produce an absolute reason for something to happen or not happen, it tends to be a medical pronouncement. Doctors even get to pronounce - and to be believed implicitly - on things that are nothing to do with medicine, like the death of Rolf Maynard being Lydia's fault for not training him in obedience! Which has always struck me as an outrageously inappropriate thing for a doctor to say! So I think Jem's foray into literary criticism on Joey's Elsie book is all part of that Authoritative Doctor thing EBD has - he is a Great Doctor Who Knows. To be honest, I've always found Joey's 100% acceptance of Matey's critique of Malvina Wins Through even stranger!

Author:	Tor [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
It is pretty funny/interesting to think that Joey's two first literary critics were medical professionals! Talk about taking the subtext/theme of Joey needing to be look after/controlled by doctors et al and running with it!

Author:	ChubbyMonkey [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
I'm finding this very interesting, because my current piece of writing is set in a society in which men have ultimate authority, and a woman's role is in the house only, to be obedient to her husband at all times. To clarify, I'm not saying that I disagree or agree with that - but it's fascinating to see people's views of controlling men, as someone trying to write a genuinely nice man in such a society! Anyway, back OT I always quite liked Jem and Jack. During a time when politics, financial affairs, work and all the like were largely male orientated and certainly male dominated, I can see why it would be a relief for the doctors to be around - especially later in the series, when they have responsibility for so many girls. To be able to say that, for example, OOAO had received immidiate medical care when she had her accident would help to cover the school. Plus Madge, certainly, as a young woman trying to set up by herself with worry for a delicate younger sister and numerous wards/girls under her care, must have been so relieved to have a friendly face from someone who knows his way around the world more - and I suspect would prove to be more useful than a slightly limp Dick! I'd have to say that Jack and Jem can go overboard occasionally, but I've never really seen them as overly domineering. Neither, I suspect, did Madge or Joey - or they would have said something!

Author:	cestina [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
I agree Ariel, I've always felt that Jack, particularly, was very accepting of an equal partnership; I don't see either of them as an Edwardian-style controlling man who regarded women as incapable of thought or an ability to make decisions. EBD thought "outside the box" in a lot of things and I actually think that here she was also a bit ahead of her time. From today's perspective we forget quite how dominant the man could be in a relationship and how few rights women had. Quite a lot of us on this Board are of the generation who were not allowed to manage their own tax affairs for example.....

Author:	Tor [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Quote: and I suspect would prove to be more useful than a slightly limp Dick! Oh my God Ariel, you make me die! By the way, I am assuming you've read the Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood - if not you might find it interesting r.e. your current writign project

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
ChubbyMonkey wrote: and I suspect would prove to be more useful than a slightly limp Dick! Really, Chubbymonkey, I no longer believe these 'slips' are in the slightest accidental! I've always found Jem absolutely authoritarian, and Jack a nicer, more chummy version of the same thing. His and Joey's relationship seems generally solid and likeable, but the issue of his purely medical authority skews things a bit in a way I don't care for. The thing is that, for EBD, seems to be that maleness does not automatically confer authority (as in the case of limp old Dick ) - she needs the 'extra' weight conferred by medical authority, and once she throws that into the scales as well, then the Masterful Doctor Husband gets to do more or less anything, unquestioned, because it's supposedly all for the good of the women and children. It never seems to occur to her that a doctor might abuse his power. It also makes me regret that she doesn't allow Daisy Venables to continue to practice medicine for longer - it would have been interesting to see whether EBD allowed her the same kind of unquestioned authority as her male doctors...?

Author:	Alison H [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Maybe this is a class thing or even a regional thing, but I've got this image of the 1930s as a time when men thought they were in charge but in reality it was women who were in charge . I can imagine Mollie Bettany, or even Gisela, saying "Yes dear, of course dear," to their husbands and then going off and doing things the way they themselves thought was best instead, but I can't really see Madge or Joey doing that. There aren't really any authority figures outside the school other than the doctors. A landlord would be an obvious one, but Michael Christy seems very laid back and Herr Braun seems to think that Madge and Joey are so wonderful that it's as if they're the ones in charge rather than him. Religious ministers rarely feature, and there aren't really any pillars of the local community on whom the school needs to make a good impression (especially in Switzerland, where the local community seems to consist almost entirely of Old Girls and their doctor husbands!).

Author:	cestina [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Alison H wrote: Maybe this is a class thing or even a regional thing, but I've got this image of the 1930s as a time when men thought they were in charge but in reality it was women who were in charge . I can imagine Mollie Bettany, or even Gisela, saying "Yes dear, of course dear," to their husbands and then going off and doing things the way they themselves thought was best instead, but I can't really see Madge or Joey doing that. Oh I can - in fact I've always assumed that's exactly what they did do if it became necessary.....

Author:	Sunglass [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
I don't know about Mollie. Even though repatriating your children to a more 'suitable' climate was well-established for the Raj, the little glimpse we get in New House of her misery at leaving her children in Tyrol (and leaving the baby at this point seems to have at been Jem's instigation, as if he's somehow also inside the Bettany marriage) makes me think she doesn't have a great deal of say - I also find Limp Dick rather uncharacteristically macho and dismissive of his wife's emotion in that scene with Joey and the typewriter. Plus I've always thought the reason they kept having babies was poor Mollie desperately trying to make up for the absent children thousands of miles away in the Die Rosen nursery... But then EBD is full of women following their husband's careers around distant bits of the world, as though husband automatically trumps children.

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Sunglass wrote: I don't know about Mollie. Even though repatriating your children to a more 'suitable' climate was well-established for the Raj, the little glimpse we get in New House of her misery at leaving her children in Tyrol (and leaving the baby at this point seems to have at been Jem's instigation, as if he's somehow also inside the Bettany marriage) makes me think she doesn't have a great deal of say - I also find Limp Dick rather uncharacteristically macho and dismissive of his wife's emotion in that scene with Joey and the typewriter. Plus I've always thought the reason they kept having babies was poor Mollie desperately trying to make up for the absent children thousands of miles away in the Die Rosen nursery... But then EBD is full of women following their husband's careers around distant bits of the world, as though husband automatically trumps children. And several times (although I can't think of a particular example just at the moment) girls are sent to the CS because the maother has to go away with her husband, who wouldn't be able to cope alone. Doesn't this happen to Amy, who's at the Annex and whose father is a jounalist and has to go to some eastern block country? Sorry - can't be more specific. A case of fragile men, perhaps, but men whom only stay in the background. It does seem odd that an adult male is so unabe to take care of himself that they have to park the children so the wife can go along as some kind of mother for her husband ...

Author:	Tor [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
or, to mix it up even more, could this be an extension of one of EBDs other favourite themes: of parents needing their daughters... Thus rather than the husband's needing to be mothered, implying fragility in the man, their need for their wife is merely analogous to a mother (like Madge, for example) needing her daughter. So the woman can still be cast into an 'infant' role, in this context. Probably going way overboard with the analysis here, but it is fun

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Tor wrote: or, to mix it up even more, could this be an extension of one of EBDs other favourite themes: of parents needing their daughters... Thus rather than the husband's needing to be mothered, implying fragility in the man, their need for their wife is merely analogous to a mother (like Madge, for example) needing her daughter. So the woman can still be cast into an 'infant' role, in this context. Probably going way overboard with the analysis here, but it is fun How interesting. I hadn't gone that far in my thinking of it ... And perhaps it is overboard, but you're right - it is fun!

Author:	cestina [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
julieanne1811 wrote: And several times (although I can't think of a particular example just at the moment) girls are sent to the CS because the maother has to go away with her husband, who wouldn't be able to cope alone. Doesn't this happen to Amy, who's at the Annex and whose father is a jounalist and has to go to some eastern block country? Sorry - can't be more specific. A case of fragile men, perhaps, but men whom only stay in the background. It does seem odd that an adult male is so unabe to take care of himself that they have to park the children so the wife can go along as some kind of mother for her husband ... Ah yes, but that's completely typical of books written in the fifties and earlier. I have many examples on my bookshelves though without some frantic digging I can't name names. And if you lived in the Czech Republic you would see this idea that "a man can't cope on his own" in RL -it's to be found in all the women there, even quite young ones, who, if they go out even just for the day, make sure there is a meal ready and waiting for him and numbered meals with full written instructions in the freezer if they are to be away for more than one day. Even forty years ago it would never have occurred to me that my husband couldn't cook (and shop) every bit as well as I could - for heaven's sake he could read the cookery books just like I could couldn't he?

Author:	julieanne1811 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
And then, of course, you have the complete opposite - the women who are consistently strong, and (therefore!) unmarried. Think about Miss Wilson, Miss Annersley to start with. They are never (as far as I know, and I haven't read all the unabridged books yet, so I am happy to be corrected) treated as Joey and Madge et al, but the payment for holding onto their own independence is singleness. If EBD had married them off, would they have had to surrender their strength of character in some way? (I'll come back to that one). I can't imagine Nell Wilson or Hilda Annserley married. How would their characters change? I simply cannot see them married, and with their same characters ... Coming back to the strength of character thing, Jo, especially, remains a very strong character throughout the books. It seems more suprising then that within her marriage, and with Jem, her strong character is subdued when it comes to relating to the stronger male characters. In one book (can't remember which) Madge says something like: 'Jem can be nasty with Jo when he likes', and says that this makes Jo respect what he says and do what he says. It seems an odd thing for someone to say. If I could say that about any of my friends I don't think the friendship would last. How much then does Jo's subservience owe to her trying to 'keep in' with Jem? Do we ever see a married woman challenge her husband or disagree with him resulting in a change of mind on the male character's part?

Author:	sealpuppy [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Perhaps EBD's view of men was influenced by the horrific shortage of the commodity just when she might be expected to marry? Can't remember her d.o.b, 1894ish? so the War would have changed everything. Plus her own father was an absentee, so the whole Alpha Male thing with Jem and Jack, was an idealisation of hers. In real life of course, she was a strong-minded woman, by all accounts, and might not have relished the bickering engendered by two control freaks marrying! (I speaks as one who knows , we were bickering cheerfully at our wedding reception and scarcely a day goes by without one of us attempting to assert authority!) EBD, at a time when men had the whip hand financially and socially, probably couldn't even contemplate such a marriage. Let alone believe it could be fun!

Author:	MJKB [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
julieanne1811 wrote: Do we ever see a married woman challenge her husband or disagree with him resulting in a change of mind on the male character's part? Mrs. Winterton? She holds out against her girls going to boarding school, and only capitulates when it's the CS. cestina wrote: And if you lived in the Czech Republic you would see this idea that "a man can't cope on his own" in RL -it's to be found in all the women there, even quite young ones, who, if they go out even just for the day, make sure there is a meal ready and waiting for him and numbered meals with full written instructions in the freezer if they are to be away for more than one day. I'm afraid there are still a few Irish women like that. One of my colleagues never stops quoting her husband. He taught in our school about twenty years ago and then left to go to richer pastures. He is constantly undermining her through her job, which he regards as 'money for old rope.' This is very clever on his part because he has managed to convince her that she has the time to look after every aspect of their domestic lives. She takes quite a lot of time off and is forever getting people to cover her classes, including muggins here - well, up to about three years ago, now I've copped on. She openly admits that her children have no respect for teachers, probably because their father has little respect for his wife. I'm still very fond of her, but any time she quotes her husband now I just tell her I'm not interested in anything her a***hole of a husband has to say. She's still speaking to me!

Author:	Mrs Redboots [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Adult men, infant women
Don't forget that when the first books were written, not all women even had the vote - it was only women over 30 who were granted it in 1918, and the universal suffrage we take for granted today didn't come in until 1928. (And, indeed, in many European countries much, much later - in France not until 1944, in Switzerland not until 1971, even!). And it is only very, very recently that women have been able to take out a mortgage without a male guarantor, or generally be seen to cope without a man. Madge, particularly, and to a lesser extent Joey, would have been brought up to believe that they couldn't cope without a male protector, and although this is manifestly not true in Madge's case, she still half-believes it!