The CBB :: View topic - Why did EBD need them to butt in?

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#1: Why did EBD need them to butt in? Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:25 am
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Had a hard time sleeping last night and amidst trying to count sheep, etc., found myself wondering why EBD thought she needed the adult Joey and Mary Lou to butt in to everything? Why did she like/want these two to solve every new girl's crisis? Miss Annersley and Miss Wilson are fantastic competent characters and co-heads, and there are lots of other sensible staff and older pupils floating around, so why the need to write Joey and OOAO into just about every crisis? I can see that maybe she wanted to keep Joey involved as she is the earliest pupil in the books, but couldn't EBD find something else for her to do?

Doesn't it make the whole CS ethos seem rather frail, if it can't exist or work its magic on troubled new girls without the direct interference of Joey and/or Mary Lou?

#2: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:32 am
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One possible idea might be having someone completely unrelated to everyday life that the girls could talk to. Someone slightly further from the center of where the issues could take place. And sometimes there are just some people who you do turn to naturally. Not sure why Jo and ML would be those ones, but possibly once a tradition had started, others would follow. Well, possibly...

#3: Author: Róisín, Location: Gaillimh

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:43 am
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I think she was using them as leaders to set an example - she was giving the younger girls (and readers) someone to emulate. She makes a big deal out of emulation in general eg Gisela wanting to copy Madge's methods of motherhood. Having one or two characters to focus on is easier than having a few, and readers may not relate to Miss Annersley as a pattern as much as *we* would.

#4: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:02 pm
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I think Roisin has probably captured it. There are often mentions made of the traits of a good Chalet school girl - being helpful, kind, sense of humour etc and for whatever reason, EBD has decided that Joey and Mary-Lou are the embodiment of the ideal Chalet girl.

#5: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:19 pm
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But you would think that all the head girls would embody the ideal CS girl and there are so many secondary characters that seem to be responsible and attractive - Len (who of course, is a butter in, too, to some extent), Clem Barrass, Vi Lucy and her older sisters, the older Chesters, Katherine Gordon, Daisy Venables, Robin, and others. In fact, in Island, Tom and her circle do try to intervene in Annis' trouble, and while they don't anticipate her running away, they do manage to help her not get into day-to-day trouble.

Am I wrong in thinking that this whole emphasis on butting in occurs more vehemently after the school has moved back to Switzerland, with people like Ruey, Richenda, Ted, Naomi, Jessica Wayne? I know we are told Joey butted in as a school-girl, but as has been discussed elsewhere, reading about Joey the schoolgirl doesn't seem to bear this out. Mary Lou butted in with Verity-Ann in Three, but I can't think of another example concerning her until they were back in Switzerland.

#6: Author: Lexi, Location: Liverpool

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:41 pm
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I agree with you on that Maeve. It would seem to tie in with EBD recycling plotlines a bit and having more "problem" new girls in the Switzerland books.

With the characters that need to be butted in on (what horrible English, sorry!) in the earlier books, this seems to be done by a mistress. There isn't an obvious strong character in the school along the lines of a Mary-Lou and Joey is a bit more involved with her family as well as being separated by distance from the school.

#7: Author: Róisín, Location: Gaillimh

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:51 pm
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The recycled plotlines definitely helped create the character of a butter-in. If something keeps happening, eg a problematic new girls gets sorted out, then there has to be some explanation as to why it keeps happening and why it is always the same central focus (ie M-L) that fixes the new girl. The explanation given by EBD is 'Oh, that is her character. She is a butter-in.'

#8: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:13 pm
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Róisín wrote:

If something keeps happening, eg a problematic new girls gets sorted out, then there has to be some explanation as to why it keeps happening and why it is always the same central focus (ie M-L) that fixes the new girl. The explanation given by EBD is 'Oh, that is her character. She is a butter-in.'

Whereas the explanation given by the publisher would be "Oh, these books sell like hot cakes and if they all ahve the same plot they're much faster to write." Smile

What I still don't see is why butters-in were seen as so praiseworthy. I mean, no-one likes them in real life... did anyone butt in to EBD's real life and turn her round?? Did she owe a secret debt to an interfering busybody?

#9: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:55 pm
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Tiffany wrote:

The thing is, I don't think of them as "butters-in" in the pejorative sense, and am quite certain EBD didn't either. Despite the slant of some drabbles, people like ML and Joey weren't in the business of running other people's lives, or interfering to stoke their own senses of worth. Rather, they were attempting to be genuinely caring and helpful, often with some penalty to themselves. EBD spends a lot of time showing that, if you have the ability to help matters, it is your obligation to do so. Of course, EBD's heroines' efforts typically are welcomed in the long run, whereas in RL finding the balance between supportive and interfering isn't always easy, and many situations have no straightforward answers.

I would say that, as a fairly shy/retiring/bullied child, I was very grateful to the few Mary-Lous who went to the bother of including nobodies in their groups. I also like the way that CS folks manage to give in ways that let the objects of their generosity feel they're able to help in return, or at least not seriously inconveniencing the donor. Even today, I find it much easier to accept "I'm going shopping tomorrow afternoon; would you like to come along? I'd appreciate the company," than "Just give me a call if you need anything," which might or might not be polite noise.

As I've said before, I quite admire people who manage to step in and help. I'm much too likely to agonize and dither and then kick myself when it's too late.

#10: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:11 pm
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Kathy_S wrote:

Even today, I find it much easier to accept "I'm going shopping tomorrow afternoon; would you like to come along? I'd appreciate the company," than "Just give me a call if you need anything," which might or might not be polite noise.

I think it's also the fact that you can see yourself helping them, as much as you yourself might be helped as well.

Reading through you'r post Kathy, you had me remembering ML in 'Problem'. Now, regardless of what we might think of the aim to bring Joan into line as a 'good Chalet girl' the need behind the thought was that Joan was causing herself to be excluded, and was fairly heading to making herself miserable enough to do (what she finally did do on listening in to ML's conversation) the 'running away trick.

In some light, it could be compared to Eustacia's reaction in the end - to pay out the school (and in particularly Joey) for 'the way they have treated her'.

ML had to give up some of her time, at a very busy time for her, to coach a girl she didn't particularly like in Tennis (and forcing herself to forget about the girl she does like, but who fits in far better).

Then there was the half term visit Joan made to see her. OK, possibly ML shouldn't have spoken about her when there was even a half chance she might hear - and was there much reason for her confiding in the other girl (I forget - Katherine Gordon, or Carola?) in what she was doing. But with it being such a sacrifice, then possibly she did need to chat about it. Or did the other girl bring it up, I can't remember.

But, yes, that was what I was remembering.

#11: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:08 am
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I think what grates on rereading the series is the repetitiveness. New girls with problems (NGWP) are integrated into the school, usually after causing problems for themselves due to their behavior. It's just that, particularly in the Swiss books, it's inevitably Joey or ML who is the one who solves the problem.

NGWP joines school

NGWP has trouble fitting it, ususually due to some sort of background problem such as bad parenting, resentment over a family issue, lack of religion, genius, or they're being bullied by a classmate.

NGWP is ostracised by her peers due to her behavior.

Joey or ML is given detailed inside information about the NGWP's background by a third party - Miss Annersley, a letter from a friend, Joey, Jack, etc, and either decides to help, or is asked to to so.

Joey/ML intervenes - often a heart to heart chat is enough to bring NGWP around to a right way of thinking, sometimes combined with an accident, illness, or other trauma to make them see the error of their ways.

NGWP settles in to be a productive member of the school, is often later a prefect, and goes on to be a loyal old girl, forever grateful to the intervention of ML/Joey.

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You get the feeling in the later books that the rest of the staff and students are helpless in the face of a problem girl, and can't cope without Joey or ML bringing their special brand of insightfullness to the situation.

One interesting case is Yseult, who *doesn't* get the special treatment. She's been raised by a crackpot mother, her father having died in childhood, and has all sorts of pretensions. Her mother is travelling to support the family, and is facing a life threatening operation. Yseult has a chip on her shoulder, and no friends. Classic case for intervention, right?

However, they condescend to her about her mother's writing, take over her idea about performing a play, snigger about her mother in front of the woman's face. She is there for two terms, and still has had no-one butt in to help her or make friends and her mistress actively dislikes her.

She's one of the very, very few cases who only reforms *after* leaving school.

#12: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:19 pm
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When did Yseult reform???

#13: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:41 pm
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Loryat wrote:

When did Yseult reform???

There's discussion in Reunion I think - Cornelia had taken on guardianship of the three Pertwee girls when their mother had died - she says that Yseult had really made good and that she was really 'looked up to' by her younger sisters.

#14: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:54 pm
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Ah. That makes sense, and now I actually think I remember reading it. I wonder if the fact that Yseult had at last learnt to 'laugh at herself' was seen by EBD as crucial in her development to reformed, mature character?

#15: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:14 pm
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jennifer wrote:

New girls with problems (NGWP) are integrated into the school, usually after causing problems for themselves due to their behavior. It's just that, particularly in the Swiss books, it's inevitably Joey or ML who is the one who solves the problem.

I'd say that's partly just the demand of the series book genre. Not giving Jo or ML a role would be equivalent to having someone else solve the mystery in a Nancy Drew book.

#16: Author: mohini, Location: india

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:01 am
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How did Cornelia meet Yseult?

#17: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:12 am
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mohini wrote:

How did Cornelia meet Yseult?

Mrs Pertwee was taken seriously ill whilst working in America, so the School/Joey asked Cornelia to look after Yseult and her sisters as she lived in the area and they didn't know anyone else there. I think it was in Boston.

#18: Author: Phil, Location: London UK

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:38 pm
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Just found this thread and pretty much agree with everyone. I've just read the GGBP edition of Challenge (first time I have read the book) and I felt really, really sorry for Mary Lou. She simply turns up out of the blue for nor really strong reason obviously to help the wicked Jos Marvel reform.

I also felt sorry for Len. She is written as a "butter in" like her mother, and strictly speaking she should have solved Jos Marvel's problems. It would have highlighted and strengthened Len as a character no end.

Sadly poor old OOAO is dragged out to do the job!

#19: Author: Gabrielle, Location: Near Paris, France

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:44 pm
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Alison H wrote:

mohini wrote:

How did Cornelia meet Yseult?

I love that Joey apparently takes it on herself to convince Cornelia that she wants to take on three children she has never met one of whom has an 'artistic temperment' or whatever.

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