The CBB :: View topic - Quality of the Swiss books

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#1: Quality of the Swiss books Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:11 am
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I've heard quite a lot of people say that the quality of the Chalet School books declines once the school goes to the Oberland and/or around half-way through the series. I'm doing some research for my dissertation at the moment and that seems to be a common view among critics also. I'm just wondering what people think about that.

- Does the quality decline?
- From where do you mark the decline? Oberland? Joey Goes? Barbara? Somewhere else?
- Are there any books in the period that don't fit into this model?

I'm just wondering, because I can't account for it really. Sometimes the later ones get a bit "samey" and bland, but I think New Mistress and Problem are fantastic, for example, and I love Triplets, Trials and Theodora. I can't find a definitive point where I think "EBD lost it" and I'm wondering if anyone else can!

(Maybe this should be a debate, if people are interested?)

#2: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:30 am
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To be fair to EBD, I suppose it's quite difficult to keep thinking of more and more new storylines, especially when you're restricted to one main geographical location and a range of main characters who because of the context're limited to one gender, a certain social class and a very limited age range.

Some of the later storylines are just silly - the one about Samantha and Samaris being long-lost relations, for example. Come to think of it, the Richardsons and the Rosomons are also long-lost relations, and so are Robin and Adrienne which people realise because they look alike even though they're related on Robin's dad's side and we've always been told that Robin looks like her mum! Having said which, "coincidences" like that happen in all books, even in "classics" like Pride and Prejudice where the Bennets' cousin just happens to be the rector for Mr Darcy's aunt's parish and Lydia Bennet just happens to run off with the same man who tried to run off with Georgiana Darcy!

I think the daftest storyline of the lot is Prof Richardson going off in a space rocket and never being heard of again - it really does not fit in with a school series! & just how many children could fit into Freudesheim?!

Sorry for waffling Laughing

! I think things start taking a major downturn after Theodora - Jack Lambert's gang are quite interesting in their way, but the storylines in Redheads, Two Sams and Summer Term (complete stranger in the street - oh, you must be my Auntie Joey who's going to be my guardian even though you don't know I exist Rolling Eyes

!) just seem silly to me, and Wins the Trick just isn't interesting at all.

End of long waffle!

#3: Author: francesn, Location: away with the faeries

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:37 am
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There are the occasional good ones - an interesting new girl (Ricki/Ted), a term full of crises where nothing goes right (Trials/Triplets) but I think, though I hate to say it, the downturn really comes when Mary-Lou leaves. In the same way that some of the middle-English ones aren't brilliant she has too many characters in the late Swiss and can't concentrate on a group - EBD is much better when she writes one STRONG central character, avec hangers on. And the triplets, wondrous and unique as they were, weren't one person (unless of course your read Me, Myself and Margot in which case they are).

That I suppose is the real problem in my opinion. Might come back and give a more formulated answer later.

#4: Author: Tiffany, Location: Is this a duck I see behind me?

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:13 pm
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I agree the Swiss books aren't as good, but now you ask I'm not sure why I think that (and I haven't read all of them, anyway...). I think part of the problem is the sameness - there seem to be lots of very generic "New girl comes to the school, finds it all a bit of a shock, eventually settles down and becomes a Proper Chalet Girl" storylines. Parts of this develop into almost parody; the ridiculous "you have to have your morning bath in three seconds flat" thing, for instance.

There are too many characters introduced for any to be developed very well; you don't often get to follow a charcter through the school. The triplets are an exception, obviously, but people like Ros Lilley and Ricki Fry become "a friend of the triplets" and used for incidental dialogue, rather than being continued as people in their own right.

I'll stop waffling now and go and think about it properly...

#5: Author: Fatima, Location: Sunny Qatar

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:54 pm
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Yes, I agree with the lack of development of the characters; they come in as the star of their own book, and are never heard of again afterwards. I really like Theodora and (I know few others agree) Redheads; however, Copper, who had potential to be a really good character fades into nothingness afterwards. Other than that, the others are very 'samey'. It is hard to say where this begins, though, so maybe it's more correct to say that more of the later books were dull; I find 'United' and 'Wrong' less than inspirational, too, but they are surrounded by good stuff.
Hope this makes sense!

#6: Author: Laura V, Location: Merseyside, UK

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:36 pm
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Yes, definitley the lack of character development is a problem in the later books. Mary-Lou is one character that is developed well but the rest of the gang are just too anonymous (hope I've spelt that write!), there is a distinct lack of personality. The earlier characters had their own personality - Grizel, Robin, Joyce Linton etc. and the reader was able to decide whether or not they liked these characters. EBD also has the tendency to build up a character and then just drop her such as Jo Scott.

For me the series drops in quality after New Mistress and doesn't begin to pick up again until Triplets. It's as if EBD had a sudden rush of ideas and felt that she had to express each one by way of a new book.

#7: Author: Róisín,

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:43 pm
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I disagree. I'm reading the later books now for the very first time (in most cases) and the quality is no lower than the earlier books. What is different is the atmosphere - I think this can be accounted for by the nostalgia we attach to the prewar and just-postwar books, and the fact that these are our first encounters with those characters who go on to become our favourites. Sorry, that was a convoluted sentence Laughing

The later books bring us a lot closer to our own time in their fairly modern events and outlook -> because this isn't what we expect (or want?) from EBD, we don't like it.

As far as characters go, I think some of her best are her later ones. Jack Lambert: I don't see much difference between her and Young Joey. That's not to say that I think she's a repeat or carbon copy. She has her own quirks and her own make-up etc, but she is just as complicated and welldrawn a character as the complex and very real Young Joey. Jane Carew is, I think, my favourite character of the entire series, and she only stars in a very late book (oh darling! Laughing

). The plotlines aren't that repetitive -> and when they do show a likeness to earlier plotlines, this is acknowledged in the text ie in Two Sams, the storyline of Princess is brought up two or three times.

#8: Author: claireM, Location: rotherham

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:52 pm
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I find it hard to pinpoint where I think the books start to deteriate, I really like the early Swiss ones and though the ones I'm not so bothered with start to increase around about Wins the Trick, it's only the last 5 or 6 that I find really awful as a block.
I agree about the lack of character development, new girls get introduced and then disappear too much whereas earlier in the series you tend to see more of them in later books (though not always).
I do find that the later books are better read as individual stories than in order, for me it makes people like Mary Lou less irritating and the new girl being introduced then dropped less of a problem.

#9: Author: Chris, Location: Nottingham

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 3:40 pm
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I quite enjoy the later books although I greatly prefer the Tyrol period.

However, I don't think we should forget that EBD is writing to make a living. She is getting older and may not be quite so enthousiastic about inventing new plot lines and may be relying to a certain extent on a formulaic approach that has sold her books in the past. Maybe it has become just a 'job' to her, rather than characters in her head that have to have their voices heard.

Just a thought.

#10: Author: Catrin, Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:45 pm
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I agree that Summer Term is well below standard for the series; Adrienne I found dull but better, but on the whole I've enjoyed the Swiss books I've read (all of them as far as Jane, plus ST and A). However I get a bit fed up with going back every single term - it makes the series as a whole slow down for me. I prefer seeing bigger changes in people, like in the earliest books where there are often several terms or years between books. Somehow it seems more likely that a school could have one near-fatal accident a year rather than one a term!

#11: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:51 pm
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I found the series to go downhill after about Feud.

I think part of the problem was that the school was well established and settled into a routine - in the earlier books there are a number of shakeups - the initial formation, the feud and merger with the Saints, changes of headmistress, the flight from Austria, move to England, move to the Island, move to Switzerland - all of these caused a reorganisation in the school, pared off a number of extraneous characters, added some new ones in bulk, and gave a new location. There's at most about 7 or eight books in a given setting and organisation, and then we hit Switzerland and there are 20 books in the same location, with the same heads and organisation.

As a result, the books become more insular - most of the books are within the structure of a normal term, with the new-girl/problem/resolution structure, with plot elements such as Joey and Jack taking in children, random relationships, unmotivated jealousies, Joey/ML's amazing insight solves the problem, occurring with occasionally jarring frequency, and the more original plot elements becoming more fantastical (International Criminals! Space Flight! Aren't you my Aunt Joey!)

I also think the series suffers somewhat by not having connections with the surrounding people - Switzerland is a backdrop for half-term excursions and chunks of history, but we don't really know people outside the school and San the way we do in the Tyrol or England - the shopkeepers and inkeepers and local farmers and herders and ministers.

#12: Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:28 pm
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Like Róisín, I agree that part of the problem for me is that I am so sentimentally attached to the books up to Highland Twins that I find it hard to get as excited about the later books. I feel that about the books set in the UK too - it's not what I grew up with and therefore still seems inferior. I just don't like change Very Happy

At the same time, like Róisín, Jane is one of my favourite characters in the whole series and I really like it as a book (hence the Jane drabble!) and I do enjoy reading them a lot, I just find them a bit contrived sometimes and the characters do not feel like old friends like the original Tyrol lot do.

Kathryn

#13: Author: Cryst,

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:37 pm
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I'm still reading them through, mostly for the first time and have been wondering if it's my frame of mind when I read them or if some books are really better than others. I liked Jack Lambert, and her relationship with Len, and I enjoyed Feud (though I can't for the life of me remember why by now!) I'm on Reunion now and had been looking forward to it. Probably because I have a shiny new GGB, and was expecting it not to be the usual plot -- new-girl/concert-or-sale-or trip/mountain adventure. But it's irritating me rather. The convenient doctor for Grizel, who just happens to be travelling round the world bumping into her, carrying with him a 2 volume book of baby names. Len falling into a tree. Grizel in bed with a "cracked spine" in plaster. (Can you really plaster a cracked spine?) And storylines beaming in from nowhere (unless it's just me not paying attention) like chicken pox and Miss Bubb. And some woman who keeps howling who I don't remember from the earlier books.

Sorry - that became a bit of a rambling rant ...

#14: Author: Cryst,

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:39 pm
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Oh and that bloody dog. You'd think Joey would do a better job of training it ...

#15: Author: Fatima, Location: Sunny Qatar

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:43 pm
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Yes, I remember being vaguely disappointed with Reunion. It looked so wonderful and sounded great, meeting all the old friends again, but somehow didn't quite live up to expectations. I have to admit, being a hopeless romantic at heart, that I did like the Grizel/Neil thing! Wink

#16: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:45 pm
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Laughing

Cryst.

#17: Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:04 pm
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The last three books in the series, Challenge, Althea, and Prefects are probably the three books I dislike the most out of the whole series. However, (I'm going to whispher this!) Summer Term is probably one of my favourites of the Swiss era, and the two Sam's storyline doesn't bother me either.

EBD does recycle plots but every author does when they write a large enough series, and inevitably the later books won't compare to the earlier one's. When I was younger I remember hating the later Famous Five books compared to the earlier ones.

I wonder what we would have thought of the CS if it had remained in Tyrol for longer than it had. I think that by changing the location of the CS due to the war, or drains, or back to the alps managed to keep the series fresher than it otherwise would have done. The majority of the CS books are set in the Swiss era and maybe this is why we have a problem with the books from this time? And I don't know about anybody else but I've always thought that the Platz must have been a bit boring. I'd have much rather there be a lake rather than a mountain shelf setting!

Sorry if I've confused anybody, I think I've confused myself a bit!

#18: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:58 pm
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I agree that the plots become formulaic and also thet the Platz itself is boring. The Swiss setting is the longest run in the whole series, but I can't see how EBD could have had the school move again. Another point worth considering is that by the Swiss books, EBD had lost contact with young people and the school environment.

#19: Author: Rob, Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:03 pm
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I always think that the Swiss books (which in my mind start with Barbara) are good books if they are considered on their own, but that they don’t really work as a series.

It isn’t just the same-y-ness of the plots or the unconvincing “coincidences” that EBD throws at us, but the level of characterization given to secondary/minor characters seems to decline too. In the earlier books (up to Tom and Bride et al or maybe OOAO’s gang) the secondary characters seem to be there for more than just the occasional line or to pass on a message (I’ve only read the pbs – maybe these characters do more in hb?); some of them even (talks in low tones that don’t carry as far as whispers) *have their own plotlines!* In the later books the ‘new girl’ plotline stories, could basically be written only including ‘new girl’, ‘new girl’s friend/sheepdog’, ‘new girl’s sworn enemy’, ‘an occasional mistress’ and OOAO/Joey!

I really don’t like Althea or Summer Term (assuming this is the one about Erica) or Feud (which could be New if it wasn’t for the Minettes), nor do I think that Redheads is very believable, however it is a breath of relatively fresh air in the plot stakes! I quite like Reunion although I always despair at the way than Neil Shepperd is dragged into the series (especially as a previously unheard-of San doctor has to leave in order for Neil to stay – why couldn’t he just have been Grizel just have fallen for him?); I also despair when the Romosons and the Richardsons are revealed to be related in Joey and Co too!

I think that Len and Margot are quite well developed characters (although Con, by far my favourite triplet, always seems badly neglected – couldn’t EBD have come up with just one more storyline for the poor girl other than the “Daniel bit the lions” one?) Ted Grantley seems quite well developed for a secondary character but as for Jack Lambert *screams* why did no-one notice that she was some queer polyglot of a creature who was fed all of Tom Gay and OOAOML’s unfinished storylines?

OK, I have managed to confuse myself now too.

Oh, I found/find the later FF books repetitive too Cazx!!

#20: Author: Changnoi, Location: Milwaukee, USA

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:55 am
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One of the things that I find in the Late Swiss Books that I dislike--and that I don't remember there being so much of earlier in the series--is the number of books in which one of the main characters has another character who really hates her.

Margaret Twiss hates Jack Lambert.
Jack Lambert hates Jane.
Victoria Wood hates Erica.
Janet (?) hates Adrienne.
One of the Pertwees who isn't Yseult hates Althea? A Sam? I don't even remember anymore.

I agree with the others who have commented that life on the Gornetz Platz is boring. I have no particular sentimental attachment towards Tyrol, either--I think that the last few Tyrolean books, with exception of Exile are trying hard to find their place without Joey as a schoolgirl and are sort of strange. I do like most of the British books, but I also like the earlier Swiss books--Barbara and Oberland and even Coming of Age and Genius.

In the Late Swiss books, I dislike, as I mention above, the use of the "old girl takes a vicious and unreasonable hate to a new girl" plot device. Like others, I don't feel like there's any character to really rally around. I think Len was too good all her life for me to really care about--we've known her since birth, and, to me, by the time she's Head Girl, she seems Dull. Margot's reformation seems to happen too suddenly, and we still get told by EBD that she doesn't really seem like she cares about people, yet we're also told that she's thinking of going off to be a nun. Con seems like someone who'd be interesting to get to know, but we never really get to meet her. Yet the thing is, as uninteresting as Len is, EBD writes her like we are supposed to be as enthralled by her as we were by Young Joey and as we may have been--as I was!--by OOAOML. For the triplets' counterparts among the prefects, we do have some interesting English girls--Ros, Ricki, Ted, Ruey--who do have interesting back stories, but who then--Ruey and Ricki especially, I feel--fade into the background and become colorless. And, although the prefects are possibly the most mulitcultural set of prefects since the school has left Tyrol, the characters of the non-British girls are completely undeveloped. In Tyrol, we knew a lot about Marie and Simone and Frieda and Gisela and Bette. Here, we have Eloise and Lisette and Aimee and a bunch of other people. We know where they're from and what prefect they are, and that's about it.

When you go down the school, things don't improve. In Tyrol, we had the Quintette in the Middles. In England, we saw Bride growing up; later, we saw OOAOML grow up. Here, we have Janice and Ailie and Judy and Adrienne in inter V. Janice and Ailie and Judy are vaguely colorful; we know about them from their elder sisters. Then we have Jack's gang. Jack herself was described upthread as half Tom Gay and half OOAOML. I'd say she's a third Tom, a third OOAO, and a third Emerence. In any case--she's not terribly original, though I like Renata. Then, you get Erica, who is a one-dimensional walking disaster, and her particular crew, who are a bunch of people we've never met prior to this plus Gretchen von Ahlen, who, for Frieda's daughter, seems to be rather...prissy. And then, further down, you get Felicity and Jean and Lucy Peters, none of whom were ever developed as characters anywhere. The whole school lacks color.

I wish I could actually write this reasonably well, but I am just trying to say that by the time you get to the Late Swiss books, there "is nothing new under the sun". The characters are bits and pieces of characters that have been used before, and plots are either recycled or really farfetched, with the exception of the old-girl-hates-new-girl, which is just vicious and unnecessary.

Chang

#21: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:49 am
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I have to agree with what Changnoi says here. As far as I can see it, the problem is that the school gets too big for EBD. There are too many characters who are daughters of original characters and so 'need' their own space in the series. Therefore, they are also required to have groups of friends, and as no central EBD character can only have one or two friends, they must have a lot. For this reason, and to misquote Shakespeare, 'the school must be peopled'. Therefore we have numerous new girls coming in to link up with the old ones, but EBD can't afford to spend too long on any one girl at the expense of any others (except, of course, for the triplets) so she really spreads herself too thin.

It does mean the CS could reasonably go on for perpetuity (we can all name girls in just about every form all the way down the school who will, of course, become the next Head Girl/Second Prefect/Games Prefect, and by the time they are finished, children of the Bettany, Maynard, Russell, etc. daughters will be joining the school), but as the numbers of daughters of Old Girls who are sent to the school increase exponentially, there is accordingly less time to devote to their character development than there was in the Tyrol/English/Early Swiss books. The future of the school won't have a third Joey/OOAO for the simple reason that no one Old Girl is important enough for her daughter to feature in this way (unless a new girl fills that role, which would seem unlikely, as they would be a mere copy of OOAO in that sens). However, it is impossible to dispute the fact that the numbers of Old Girls' daughters/younger sisters will increase in the school as time goes on and it might not be impossible, as I remember reading in one story, for entire classes to made up, perhaps not solely of Bettanys/Maynards/Russells, but certainly of the daughters of Old Girls.

Gee, this topic does prompt rambling, doesn't it? Laughing

#22: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 am
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Changnoi wrote:

I agree with the others who have commented that life on the Gornetz Platz is boring.

Chang

Part of the problem for me, with the Platz, is that I could never quite visualise the layout of it. I wonder if this is because it's made up (unlike most of the earlier locations). Also, we rarely meet anyone outside the school who isn't English / a Doctor / an ex-mistress - this makes the school much more part of an isolated enclave, rather than really part of the community, as it was in Tyrol.

Having said all of that, with the exception of about five books, I don't think the Swiss books are *worse* than the others, they are just very different.

Major problem: too many characters and too little characterisation - EBD couldn't resist having the school be a success, which made it just grow and grow. Thus, there are vast tracks of younger girls who are just lists of names. This is unlike the rest of the series, where there are always two or three different groups of friends of different ages, who we know well.

Partly, I think this is a side-effect of focussing too many early Swiss-period books on the Triplets or the Gang, which meant that EBD lost valuable opportunities to develop characters in other parts of the school ready to bring into the main story when M-L and Co left.

I think the other thing we all forget is how elderly and ill EBD had become when writing the very last books. I think we can attribute the strange, disconnected plotting of Adrienne, Summer Term, Althea, Two Sams and Prefects to her declining powers.

To my mind, Challenge is the last good book - a really interesting and realistic storyline (school coping without the Head, and for good reasons rather than an accident), and I'm only sorry she didn't attempt it a bit earlier, when she was at the height of her abilities.

Caroline.

#23: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:08 am
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KB wrote:

Gee, this topic does prompt rambling, doesn't it? Laughing

You are so right!

#24: Author: kimothy, Location: Glasgow

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:03 am
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i have to agree the swiss books just aren't as good. I think the characters dont appeal as much, or when they do they are just ignored in the later books, e.g. ted ( i really liked theodora but is it just me or did she reform way too quickly?)

The earlier books just have that indescribable extra thing about them... the groups of friends all have personalities, and EBD goes on about them just long enough for the characters to be well liked without becoming caricatures of themselves/boring.. e.g. gay and jacnyth who are (in my opinionj) great characters...

anyways this probably didnt make much sense( and as i have only read about 2 thirds of the CS books if that ( shocking i no!!) then maybe i am just more biased as most of the ones i have read and enjoyed are tyrol/plas howell/ island ones)

kim

#25: Author: Ruth B, Location: Oxford, UK

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:38 am
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I think that I (and maybe the critics are doing this as well) sub consciously compare the Swiss books with the Tyrol books (which maybe why some of my favourite swiss books are the ones that feature the Tyrol, like Joey and Co) Compared with the Tyrol, the platz is small, insular and quite frankly, dull.

#26: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:56 am
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Part of the problem is that the school has grown to be too big, so the traditions that were reasonable and feasible in a smaller school just seem out-dated and unwieldy in a larger school. We don't meet character such as the Maranis any more and get to know them, we have the repetitious business of New Girl - problems - redemption, in every book.

The insularity of the Platz is also a handicap. We hear a lot about the Maynard triplets being able to speak Romansche fluently, but we rarely see them actually coming into contact with local people so that it seems real.

I've always felt that the Tyrol books were richer in characterisation and event than the Swiss ones. The Welsh books were also better because they were for the most part more probable than the Swiss ones.

#27: Author: Róisín,

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:17 pm
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I wonder, if EBD had started the school in an imaginary location in Switzerland before moving it to the UK during the war, and then to the factual location in Tyrol -> how that would have affected our reading of the books/this debate.

#28: Author: JoS, Location: South Africa

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:53 pm
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This is a very interesting discussion and I agree with the points made re lack of characterisation, size of the school etc. We all seem to agree that not all the Swiss books are below par and so I won't belabour the issue.

But I've always wondered why EBD did not pursue the St Mildred's storyline. After Oberland, we only meet the St Mildred characters at plays (I think) and in my opinion, the most tedious aspects of the Swiss book are the lengthy description of Christmas plays and pantomines. Had she written more finishing school books, she would have had the opportunity to develop her earlier characters - such as Bride, Julie, OOAO etc. It would also have given her the chance to explore different plotlines - the Elma boyfriend plot for example.

#29: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 pm
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I haven't read very many of the later books. I read Prefects, Challenges, Summer Term and Problem several years ago when I probably wasn't at the height of my critical abilities...but I have recently read Genius, Mistress, Theodora and Trials and I thought they were all pretty good, with interesting storylines etc...though I must admit Mary-Lou can be a bit of a pain...

*off topic...does anyone else think Mary-Lou was partly responsible for the tobogganing accident, since she actually ran towards the toboggan? Exclamation

*

Anyway, my favourtie section of the series is from start of the series to the end of the war...but some of the books from that bit are not among my favourites...I think one reason I prefer it is that it's all so much quainter than the later books. Also, the secondary characters are better developed, probably because there aren't so many.

When you think about it, there are some pretty improbable happenings in the earlier books. What about the mysterious way everyone gets to hear about Katherine Gordon's parents in Wrong (never mind the whole coincidence of another girl with practically the same name being entered for the school that term?), or Joey getting to confront Aunt Margaret in Island?

And when it comes to dropped characters, what about Daisy, Gwensi and Beth? Unless they feature in some of the chunk of books I haven't read, I think they were very well developed and then discared, and I thought them good characters.

#30: Author: Michelle, Location: Near London

Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:52 pm
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*off topic...does anyone else think Mary-Lou was partly responsible for the tobogganing accident, since she actually ran towards the toboggan? Exclamation

*

Interesting point!

Yes, it was very stupid and irresponsible of Mary-Lou to run towards that toboggan. What could she possibly gain from it? She has achieved some quite impressive things during her time at the CS, but I'm sure even she couldn't stop a speeding toboggan single-handed.

So what did ML want? Quite possibly the attention of a doctor. Of course, it didn't work. Mary-Lou had to be content with the doctor's wife, while Emerence was undressed by the doctor.

Michelle

#31: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:46 pm
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I've been thinking about this subject some more and I remembered the unlikely coincidence of Frieda and Joey happening on Daisy in the Austrian books. So I think EBD was always pretty prone to this kind of unlikely storyline and maybe she just succumbed to it more later on.

#32: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:00 pm
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As others have said, I think the incidental characters give the Tyrol/wartime books greater depth than the Swiss ones. We see the girls interacting with people who aren't parents/staff/other girls, and we're reminded that the CS doesn't exist in a vaccuum. Herr Braun, Frau Berlin, Grossmutter Mensch, poor Herr Marani, the Tzigane bands, the girls the Macdonalds meet on the train, Rebecca Learoyd and others - OK, Frau Berlin is a bit of a caricature, but the others are all well drawn and contribute to the story. Whereas once the School goes to Switzerland we hardly meet anyone who isn't British and directly connected to School/San.

I think the fact that the Tiernsee and Armishire are real locations which EBD knew, while the Platz is entirely imaginary, and EBD as far as is known never visited Switzerland, also makes a difference.

Jay B.

#33: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:43 pm
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Having the benefit of all the comments before I found this ( Wink

), I found myself nodding at all the comments.

For me, CS in the Oberland, represent my childhood reading and the point at which I 'grew out' of the series. Reading it all again later (when I regressed in my 20s) and adding the Swiss Books left me thinking that the early ones were best.

Coming back to them later has left me thinking that EBD identified, first with Madge, and then with Jo. I certainly identified with Jo in the earlier years - she had all the faults I had (including being long and scraggy and not in the least pretty) and she had the strengths I admired.

To my eyes - at around 12 or so - her combination of mother of a 'long' family and a career as a writer seemed idyllic. At that age the father of the children was fairly irrelevant.

I don't think EBD found another character to replace Jo as a schoolgirl, though she tried with Mary Lou and probably intended to do it with Len - but it didn't work for us and I guess it didn't work for her.

I think she had a mid life crisis and realised that she didn't identify with it in the same way. I think she must have been heartily sick of the CS by the time she died. To some extent, Hilda was the headmistress she could never be and Nell was the friend she never had and she would have preferred to have gone where we have in some of the drabbles and concentrated on the staff - but she couldn't. She was a children's author and was stuck with a contract to Chambers to earn her living.

The coincidences never bothered me, and don't really now. Think of Dickens or any 'Classic' author and you'll find coincidences just as unlikely! Shakespeare is riddled with them and he doesn't get the same criticisms. At least she tried to break the mould with books such as Redheads - even if it didn't succeed as well as we might have wished.

#34: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:05 pm
—

Quote:

At least she tried to break the mould with books such as Redheads - even if it didn't succeed as well as we might have wished.

I get a similar sense from EBD's later books to that I get from the later books of Agatha Christie, her contemporary. That they were both out of touch with, indeed rather uncomfortable in, modern times. A combination probably of the fact that they were becoming elderly and things were changing so rapidly in the 60s. AC was able to explore this a little through her alter ego, Ariadne Oliver, but since EBD was writing for young people she didn't have that option.

Jay B.

#35: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:57 pm
—
And when EBD tried to be 'modern', she ended up with space travel and motorboats, all of which sound a bit insane! She wasn't really a plot writer, of course, character was always her strength, and I do so agree with Patmac that she became more and more interested in the adults, which is why we can have such fun drabbling.

patmac wrote:

Hilda was the headmistress she could never be and Nell was the friend she never had

Oh yes, a thousand times yes. Poor EBD. But lucky us.

#36: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:37 pm
—

Tara wrote:

patmac wrote:

Hilda was the headmistress she could never be and Nell was the friend she never had

Oh yes, a thousand times yes. Poor EBD. But lucky us.

Echoes yes and nods! Laughing

#37: Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I?

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:20 am
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I often wonder if Readheads came about because EBD was well aware that she was stuck in a rut. I think it certainly takes guts to do something so completely different in a long-running series.

I also wonder how much editorial strong-arming went into the repetitive plots - after all, the publishers had a template that sold well, why should it be changed?

On a different note, I have to disagree with Jack being an amalgum of other characters. For me she's always had a unique character - I just really seriously dislike the girl Laughing

#38: Author: Catrin, Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:23 pm
—

Tara wrote:

space travel and motorboats

Where do these come from? Space travel is Ruey's father I suppose but I can't think of any motorboats.

I do get a bit annoyed at the soap opera syndrome towards the end - everyone is a long lost relation / old girl/ lives on Ramsey Street. But, there are so many of them (relations & old girls) that she might as well use them, I suppose.

#39: Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:34 pm
—

Catrin wrote:

Tara wrote:

space travel and motorboats

Where do these come from? Space travel is Ruey's father I suppose but I can't think of any motorboats.

In Prefects Jocelyn comes up with the bright idea that the school should have motorboat races as part of the summer regatta. It was squashed by most people unsurprisingly!

Kathryn

#40: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:14 pm
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Didn't Kathie Ferrars also rescue two boys in a runaway motorboat too?

#41: Author: KathrynW, Location: London

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:16 pm
—

Lesley wrote:

Didn't Kathie Ferrars also rescue two boys in a runaway motorboat too?

I think so - is that in Althea? I haven't read that but there Jacynth says in Prefects that Kathie could teach them how to use the motorboats because she showed how she could handle them before.

Kathryn

#42: Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:20 pm
—
Yes, that was the incident which inspired Jocelyn M\arvell to suggest that the school should try motor boat racing. Her ides was that Miss Ferrars would be able to coach them all since she had shown herself so good at it.

Jocelyn rather overlooked the fact that while Miss Ferrars managed to stailize the situation, it took one of the officials from the motor boat company to actually bring them safly back to dry land.

#43: Author: Squirrel, Location: St-Andrews or Dunfermline

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:40 pm
—

Michelle wrote:

*off topic...does anyone else think Mary-Lou was partly responsible for the tobogganing accident, since she actually ran towards the toboggan? Exclamation

*

Interesting point!

Michelle

My comment exactly on reading this quote - My main thought was that if it was someone like schoolgirl Joey wouldn't one or another staff member have pointed out just how irresponsible she was being by doing this? I'm sure they would have - Miss A. or 'Bill' would have talked to her about how her behaviour had influenced the situation and had lead to her own health being in danger. She'd have had a lecture about thinking before she acted.

With ML it's just ignored and passed over as part of what Emerence did wrong...

#44: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:34 pm
—
I don't think she was being irresponsible at all! It's not as though she ran right into the path of the sled, despite the VERY misleading cover of my Armada, which is so wrong it even has Margot still on board. She's going up the hill, yes, but on the side of the run, yelling directions. It took an unforseen snag, a half turn, Emerence being thrown "clear across the narrow margin of the run," and a tree at just the right angle of interception for harm to be done.

What I don't understand is why people weren't taught to bail if there was any danger of a collision. That would have been our normal protocol. Only if the people on board were unable to brake or steer properly, and too panicked to roll off, would you try to slow/divert someone else. But, when you did, you had to get above them. So, I assumed ML was getting into position in case the clarion voice was ineffective.

Of course our hills weren't exactly Alps!

#45: Author: JoS, Location: South Africa

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:28 pm
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Yes, wasn't that in Althea?

#46: Author: Phil, Location: London UK

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:17 pm
—
I've just found this post, most of what I've wanted to say has been covered, but I feel the Tirol books were far better than the Swiss books. Did EBD visit or research Switzerland in much the same way she did the Tirol? There are plenty of references to Swiss history (usually via Biddy) and I do like this.

In many of the Swiss books, there are scenes which have flashes of EBD's humour and earlier writing style, but they don't grip me and make me want to read the story throughout from page to page (like the Tirol books). It is a shame that some potential characters fade into the background Jane Carew, Flavia "Copper" Letton. The one exception to this is the character I dislike most, simply because she is so believably unpleasant: Jack Lambert. I would say Jack is meant to be a new Joey, but in a twisted and malicious way. Joey may have been heavy handed as Head Girl sometimes, but she hated bullies. I'm afraid Jack is a bully and always will be.

The previous "nasty girl" in the series, Joyce Linton, did really get her comeuppance and I think it was important EBD showed this. However many times Jack got punished, she never seemed to learn her lesson.

I haven't read Challenge or Two Sams, so I can't comment. I did find the constant reappearance of OOAO to be very trying. I also felt it disheartening that with all their teaching at the best girls school, that the experienced Miss Annersley and Co seemingly "couldn't cope" without OOAO and Joey. I felt this demeaned the staff.

Con was always underused, Len had potential but she became dull and too responsible and was just not faced with the same situations as previous head girls: outright rebellion (Peggy Bettany) for example. I also felt Len was putty in Jack Lambert's hands. Len just doesn't inspire the same fear of the Head Girl (by wrongdoers) as Joey, Grizel, OOAO etc do even when she catches her precious Jack red handed in bullying Jane.

Having said this, there are some fantastic scenes in the Swiss books: Margot's comeuppance in Theodora at the hands of OOAO, the results of Ailie's prank in Trials, once again OOAO is the victor, Miss Ferrars' disciplining of Margot in New Mistress, Elma's boyfriend in Oberland, the reconciliation between Richenda and her father, the alleged burglars in Joey and Co, the kidnapping of Val Gardiner a very successful rehash of the kidnapping theme, from Princess.

They did work, but the characters who were meant to be central: Len just didn't. Apart from Prefects (possibly), does Len ever hold a prefects meeting where she deals with rebellion as effectively as her mother and Joyce in "Lintons" or OOAO and Ailie in "Trials"? Also Joey seems to have the tact of a sledgehammer. She gets worse sadly. We could perhaps have done with Madge returning to the Tirol in Joey and Co or in Reunion.

My big fear is that EBD was marking Jack out for Head Girl.

#47: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 4:03 am
—

Phil wrote:

My big fear is that EBD was marking Jack out for Head Girl.

I think that was pretty obvious. Jack is, objectively, one of the more realistic of the characters in the Swiss books. However, I still don't like her.

She doesn't reform instantly, but that's because, unlike Joyce or Cornelia or Lavender or other bad girls her behaviour is presented sympathetically, rather than as unacceptable.

Actually, her basic description is a lot like Phil Craven in the English books - she's stubborn, argumentative and prone to sulking, good at mathematics and inclined to bully others. Phil, however, is seen as a very unpleasant character and is exiled to South Africa when the school moves to Switzerland.

#48: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:42 am
—

Phil wrote:

I've just found this post, most of what I've wanted to say has been covered, but I feel the Tirol books were far better than the Swiss books. Did EBD visit or research Switzerland in much the same way she did the Tirol? There are plenty of references to Swiss history (usually via Biddy) and I do like this.

No - I think it's pretty clear that her trip to Austria was her only trip abroad. It seems that everything she knew about Switzerland came out of guide books, and to me it rather shows, unfortunately. The trips the girls go on in Switzerland, the Gornetz Platz itself - to my mind, none have the sense of place or atmosphere of the Austrian and English locations she knew so well first hand.

Caroline.

Edited to add: I got a star! Woo and indeed hoo. Very Happy

#49: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:01 pm
—

Kathy_S wrote:

I don't think she was being irresponsible at all! It's not as though she ran right into the path of the sled, despite the VERY misleading cover of my Armada, which is so wrong it even has Margot still on board. She's going up the hill, yes, but on the side of the run, yelling directions. It took an unforseen snag, a half turn, Emerence being thrown "clear across the narrow margin of the run," and a tree at just the right angle of interception for harm to be done.

But wasn't everyone else told to stay where they were? And they all did, except Mary-Lou, who completely disobeyed orders by doing anything. How exactly did she think she could save the situation better than Mdlle who's an Alpinist?

#50: Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:19 am
—
Mary-Lou is already partway up the hill before Emerence takes off, realizes what's happening, and starts running before anyone else notices anything wrong. Since she's the only one close enough to have a ghost of a chance of doing any good once Margot's left behind, she has an obligation to give it her best shot.

As far as we know (unless of course there is more in the hardback), Mlle is in no position to get to the scene quickly. Vi is first to the accident, as she was originally with ML; then Biddy, who's in charge of the toboganners and has just recovered from tripping on her way back from chasing Blossom's crew. Margot, running downhill, will probably be third. Mlle is just too far down the hill, tutoring the novices in skiing. She does yell something that seems to keep them from converging once Margot starts screaming, but I've no idea what as it's in French. The only word I recognize is "non." Confused

#51: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:08 am
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It would fit in with the CS tradition of punishing random people in the vicinity of an incident though...

I think Blossom is dressed down for carelessness when she's locked in the art room - for not knowing that it was a fake message because the art master is unlikely to be there on a weekend. This is about two pages after a descrption of why Herr Laubach was there that morning!

And when Verity-Anne refuses to sing German, several of the juniors gasp at her impertinence and are pretty severely punished - a severe dressing down, formal written apologies to Mr Denny, an evening spent in punishment sewing and two conduct marks.

#52: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:39 am
—

Quote:

It would fit in with the CS tradition of punishing random people in the vicinity of an incident though...

And Jack Lambert has to pay half the cost of repair when she gets trapped in the bathroom, when she was entirely blameless as far as I can see, and Samantha van der Byl was ticked off by Miss Annersley for believing what she was told by a prefect.

Jay B.

#53: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:45 am
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Kathy_S wrote:

She does yell something that seems to keep them from converging once Margot starts screaming, but I've no idea what as it's in French. The only word I recognize is "non." Confused

She says "Oh no! Hold yourselves everyone! (ie Don't move.) Stop all of you!"

#54: Author: Caty, Location: New Zealand

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:20 am
—
I so badly need to do a reread as I can't remember which book which things happen in, but I think the Swiss books went downhill when Mary-Lou left.

I'm not a big fan of Mary-Lou, however EBD was able to use her as a fulcrum for the story lines and had to resort less to co-incidences. When Mary-Lou leaves, EBD scrambles a bit & promotes Len. Unfortunately, Len was characterised as a sensible/studious person and not as a person who has loads of friends and she lacks the different dimensions that that Joey & Mary Lou have. I suppose it's because the triplets are meant to be the 3 parts of Joey's personality and Len lacks the mischief that Margot got. Can you ever think of a time when Len plays a prank? (I often thought that EBD meant to have the three of them as a joint head girl but Enid Blyton did it in St. Clare's first and then she couldn't. Far fetched - me, never?)

I also agree that the Platz lacks all the 'local character' that made Tirol so interesting. If you think about the Swiss location, other than the Echo, there's nothing much to describe. Also we never meet any locals. Other than the school, there's only the British Doctors. So EBD introduces new girl after new girl until there's so many, there's nowhere near enough story to go around. In the Tirol books, the Maranis, Mensches & Von Eschenaus made apperances, parents turned up at the school.

There's a lot more, but I think most of it's been covered already.

The CBB -> Anything Else

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