Powder and Lipstick
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#1: Powder and Lipstick Author: MaeveLocation: Romania PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:29 am
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I just reread Goes To It and am struck by how everyone - the staff, Joey, the prefects - react to the 14-going-on-15 year olds experimenting with nail polish, lipstick, etc. No one laughs at it, or sees it as a somewhat natural attempt to be more grown up (and during war, people grow up faster, maybe). Even the Abess' comment that it is not for "mere schoolgirls" reeks of over-riding disapproval as opposed to a common-sense argument of it simply not being allowed in school. Instead, everyone is absolutely revolted - it's "cheap", "vulgar"

In The CS and Barbara Beth Chester
Quote:
powdered her pretty nose
so it's obviously okay at some point in one's growing up - Barbara is a few years out of school - and is not considered as always being cheap. I can get that EBD (and her fictiious parents) wouldn't want the younger girls to wear make-up, but the reaction seems so shame inducing. Is she over-reacting?

#2:  Author: CatyLocation: New Zealand PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:38 am
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There's the same reaction to Joey using rouge in New House. I'm not sure if EBD was over reacting on this one. I know make up in some schools is frowned upon still & when my mother was in school in the 1960s it was a definate no-no. This was 20 years earlier (60 years ago now!). Make up was seen as being fast, but I think in later books there is some mention that powder & a little pink lipstick was acceptable for the older girls.

Last edited by Caty on Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total

#3:  Author: JackiePLocation: Kingston upon Hull PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:44 am
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Caty wrote:
but I think in later ooks there is some mention that powder & a little pink lipstick was acceptable for the older girls.


It's in Problem (just re-read that one).

I think maybe the problem was they were wearing obvious make-up - which can look wrong - especially on younger girls, and at 14/15 - wouldn't they still have been classed as Middles?

JackieP

#4:  Author: MaeveLocation: Romania PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:11 pm
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Yeah - I don't have a problem with the school authorities objecting to it - but the way they do, the use of the word "cheap". It reminds me too much of how Joan Baker is treated, I guess.

#5:  Author: Róisín PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:24 pm
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I find EBD's feelings on makeup to be mixed.

Yes, it is disapproved of for younger girls. But not merely because they are young. There is something intrinsically wrong with the practice of wearing it itself - it's vulgar, cheap, artificial. Remember the older WRNS wearing mascara in the train in Highland Twins?

Then at other times, there is nothing more desirable or more indicative of a decent girl/woman, than properly applied makeup. I'm thinking of Edna's makeover in Oberland, or the acceptedness of the Senior School wearing it Problemish-onwards. And isn't there an episode in the later books where Joey has a party and they slide around on rugs, and afterwards they all gather in the bathrooms to repowder?

It feels like there should be a clear descent, governed by the year the books are set in and the seniority of the girls involved, but I don't think it's as tidy as that. Probably EBD was writing her own opinions of real encounters with made-up girls, into the text, and her opinions probably changed depending on the girl.

#6:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:12 pm
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There is also the whole religious thing in the mix - about wanting to look your best (does Len say something to Ruey about it in Ruey Richardson?) and make the most of what God has given you in terms of looks, but equally not showing off about your looks or trying to be something you are not (more sophisticated? more grown up? there is a a premium on being kept 'young' and innocent at the CS) - you should be humble and preferably unconscious of your own beauty.

Maybe EBD thought that loads of make up and scarlet lipstick was both common / cheap and also trying to be something you are not, whereas a little pale pink lippy and a touch of powder is both subtle (and therefore respectable) and just making the most of yourself / making yourself pleasing to look at for others.

I actually don't see anything that contradictory in her attitudes. In my mind there is something quite, quite different between a little pale pink lippy and a touch of powder versus loads of slap and scarlet lippy.

Beth Chester, by the way, is about six years out of school before we see her powdering her nose.... Not really comparable to the use of make up by schoolgirls.

Caroline.

#7:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:45 pm
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I think that it was quite fashionable to wear a lot of red lipstick etc in the 1950s, and I suppose it would've been frowned on for schoolgirls to do that, and some people probably did think that it looked "fast"/"cheap". Even in the 1990s I think we'd've been told to "wash that muck off your face" if we'd turned up at school with loads and loads of make-up on!

I'd forgotten that remark of Len's. Funny that it's Len who says it, because I always think of that as being a very Protestant attitude.

#8:  Author: KatherineLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:00 pm
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I get the feeling that it's very much about age. EDB's characters seem to stay as schoolgirls and then suddenly grow up when they are Seniors. So as Seniors, wearing makeup, considering engagements are acceptable, but not before.
This doesn't quite fit with Joey and the rouge but maybe rouge is seen as cheap where powder isn't and also it was earlier on - it's later that make up is seen to be used more.
Even today, some people will balk at what they see as horrible make up/hair. Witness the expression 'Croyden facelift' (very tight ponytail, all the hair scraped back and sprayed down) the implication is still that it makes you look cheap.

#9:  Author: TanLocation: London via Newcastle Australia PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:35 pm
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I also seem to remember Len telling somebody (think it might be Emerence and Rosamund in Problem) that her mother talks about them wearing makeup as long as it is properly applied. She also mentions that only seniors are allowed to wear makeup on 'state occasions' and it powder and pale lipstick. This conversation is after Joan turning up wearing heavy makeup. There is mention made of her red lipstick as well.

So it seems it is age and what is considered to be suitable for schoolgirls.

#10:  Author: LulieLocation: Middlesbrough PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:41 pm
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Also doesn't Mollie Bettany give her girls "make up lessons", so they don't look like trollops! I assume that means she taught them how to look as if they weren't wearing make up, rather than stuff that needs to be removed with a trowel!!

#11:  Author: TaraLocation: Malvern, Worcestershire PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:52 pm
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EBD is actually, at least in her later years, much more relaxed about make-up than many of her contemporaries, and much more positive about its discreet application. There's definitely a feeling that 'no really nice girl would wear rouge' to most girls' stories of the time. Partly a class thing, I think - thick make-up is lower class and therefore 'common' (v. Joan Baker).

Also some sort of religious basis - not being content with the face God had given you sort of idea. Certainly in my church context, make-up was of the Devil!

OK, I had a weird background, but using make-up still strikes me as a very strange thing to do, if you sit and think about it!

#12:  Author: Cath V-PLocation: Newcastle NSW PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:20 am
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Tara, my Anne (7) wanted to know what was the difference between face-painting and make-up. Now that was difficult to sort out; eventually I decided that there was a difference in intent, and that make-up has associations that face-painting does not, but I'm not really happy with that as a conclusion.
But with EBD maybe the intention was the important thing? Subtle make-up used as discreet enhancement vs. lots of it used as blatant advertising? I'm not sure.

#13:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:15 am
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Katherine wrote:
I get the feeling that it's very much about age. EDB's characters seem to stay as schoolgirls and then suddenly grow up when they are Seniors. So as Seniors, wearing makeup, considering engagements are acceptable, but not before.


I've noticed that trend before. At fourteen the girls are mischevious middles - they play silly pranks, act up in prep, have midnight feasts - all fairly innocent (if obnoxious) childhish behaviour. Then, at about fifteen there is a sudden transition into miniature adult - responsible, contientious, a good disciplinarian, studious, reliable. Plus, their foreign language ability abruptly goes from a pidgin version "That would make a Frenchman tear his hair out" to "fluent and colloquial", or maybe "fluent but with a sturdy British accent". There doesn't seem to be much of that rather awkward transition phase at that age which I try not to remember.

Actually, it matches the attitudes towards boys - it's considered cheap and vulgar for the girls to giggle over boys or talk about boyfriends, but perfectly acceptable to become engaged to a family friend while still at school and marry soon afterwards.

I will say, though, that I personally dislike obvious, very grown up makeup on young girls - there's something about the heavy mascara and eyeliner on a twelve year old that looks very hard. And I do remember a tendency for girls just starting to wear makeup to go overboard - dark blue glittery eyeshadow was popular when I was that age.

When my brother was in late elementary school, his teacher said something about girls starting to wear makeup at that age. My brother commented that his older sister didn't wear makeup, and the teacher said that some girls start older than others, and asked how old I was. She looked a bit startled when he said "20".

#14:  Author: MaeveLocation: Romania PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:52 am
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Once again, I understand the school auhorities not wanting the girls to wear make-up, especially very obvious stuff - but I still think it's strange to put in down so thoroughly and nastily as being inappropriate for a middling teenager, but for it then to be absolutely okay for adults - the transition from cheap to non-cheap puzzles me. In Goes to It, aside from the pillar box red lipstick, Betty and Elizabeth are criticised for using "coloured varnish", "powder" and for wanting their hair "permed." Again, I'm not advocating any of this for school girls, but why does not one of the perfects (who are the ones discussing the affair) sympathise or think of it as merely funny - or at least as no worse than any other prank? Instead, there's all this haughty language about lowering the tone of the school and leading others astray.
Quote:
Don’t you see that if they’ve started making themselves cheap in one direction they won’t stop at it; they’ll be cheap in others?


In Joey and Co Ruey, who is exactly the same age as Betty and Elizabeth, is admonished by Joey for not caring more about her appearance.
Quote:
No one wants a mere child to take too much interest in clothes. But at your age, Ruey, you ought to be taking more than you do.
But in Goes To It - and Joey is present - Corney says dismissively,
Quote:
It’s all Betty and Elizabeth, of course. The little asses have got it into their heads that they must begin to think about their appearances,


Why not a talk with the school about how it's good to take
Quote:
a very feminine delight
in one's clothes and appearance, but make-up - applied discreetly of course, - is for older people. And Matey - or one of the trig, younger mistresses - will give lessons to the sixth form Smile

Last edited by Maeve on Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

#15:  Author: MaeveLocation: Romania PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:53 am
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Oops - all sorts of formatting problems there - I hit submit instead of preview - sorry Embarassed

Just learned how to edit - yeay me! Cool


Last edited by Maeve on Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

#16:  Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:01 am
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jennifer wrote:
I've noticed that trend before. At fourteen the girls are mischevious middles - they play silly pranks, act up in prep, have midnight feasts - all fairly innocent (if obnoxious) childhish behaviour. Then, at about fifteen there is a sudden transition into miniature adult - responsible, contientious, a good disciplinarian, studious, reliable.


I think you're right - could be because they were using heavily-applied make-up without fully realising the impression it was giving, particularly when worn with school uniform ?

#17:  Author: alicatLocation: Wiltshire PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:19 am
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believe it or not this attitude still applies in many schools.
my daughter's new secondary FORBIDS the piercing of ears. Girls who have already pierced their ear-lobes, says the prospectus in a most disapproving fashion, may wear the smallest possible gold or silver plain stud.
Body piercing is absolutely forbidden - with no mention made of exception for cultural/religious reasons eg Indian faiths Exclamation
and at the local comp the head, after an assembly lecture on the evils of wearing too much slap to school, stationed himself andother staff at the gates armed with wet wipes one morning, pulled offenders aside and ordered them to wipe it off!!!
in a very CS move, older girls wearing discreet make-up were waved thru, the punitive action was clearly aimed at the younger and more extreme end of the spectrum.

#18:  Author: EilidhLocation: North Lanarkshire PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:26 am
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That seems very ott, alicat!

My school was strict, and people did get sent to wash off their make up, or sent to the Chemistry department for acetone to remove their nail polish. Discrete was allowed though - some make up and clear nail poish were tolerated. I always assumed it was the same at the CS - if it was plastered on then it was cheap, if it was light then it was fine.

I very rarely wear make up - if I'm going out I wear very little (mascara, lip gloss, somethimes eye shadow) but day-to-day I never do. I don't have time in the morning, and tbh, I would have no idea where to start.

#19:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:27 am
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It does seem to be a very fine line that the girls are expected to manage - they are expected to take an interest in their appearance and not be slovenly or untidy - for Ruey, that includes a tidy hairstyle and a taste for nice dresses, while for slightly older girls it includes the discrete use of lipstick and face powder. Not caring about your appearance is seen as disrespectful for the people who have to look at you.

However, going a the other way and caring *too* much about clothing and appearance and wearing makeup in the wrong way or at the wrong age is seen as cheap and vulgar, and a sign of bad breeding.

I can see the distinction, but it's not an easy one for a teenager to get. It takes trial and error, and feedback, and more than one case of "go back inside and wash that off" before they start getting it right.

The scene I have in my mind that illustrates the difference between ladylike and vulgar is the comparison between Joan and Elinor in Problem.

Quote:

Elinor came into the room, very dainty in he coral-pink frock with her dark hair swung round her head in smooth plaits.

Elinor smiled at her. 'Joan tells me the Head has asked you to take charge of her for the present,' she said in her clear-cut, well-bred voice. Hope you'll enjoy the evening, Joan. Rosamund will look after you as far as she can, I know.' She nodded pleasantly at the pair with a smile

Seniors at the Chalet School might use a dust of powder and even a little pink lipstick on state occasions, but it had to be properly applied


and

Quote:

Joan's idea of a semi-evening frock was a bright scarlet jersey-cloth heavily braided in black and far tooold-looking for a schoolgirl. Her hair had been artificially waved and crinkled over her head in stiff waves. She wore a large cameo brooch which swore at the red of her dress and a string of red beads. She was also powdered and lip-sticked in a way that had made Elinor nearly gasp aloud



Elinor is dainty and pleasant and ladylike with a cultured voice. Joan is vulgar and cheap.

#20:  Author: FatimaLocation: Sunny Qatar PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:28 am
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Eilidh wrote:
I very rarely wear make up - if I'm going out I wear very little (mascara, lip gloss, somethimes eye shadow) but day-to-day I never do. I don't have time in the morning, and tbh, I would have no idea where to start.


Phew, a kindred spirit!

#21:  Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:28 am
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Quote:
my daughter's new secondary FORBIDS the piercing of ears. Girls who have already pierced their ear-lobes, says the prospectus in a most disapproving fashion, may wear the smallest possible gold or silver plain stud.


I saw three hoop earrings ripped from the earlobes of a girl during a hockey game, ouch.... It scarred horribly too. I can sort of see why they only allow studs.

#22:  Author: Liseke PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:31 am
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I'd agree with most of the posters so far who have mentioned 'class' and often less than thinly-disguised snobbery as reasons for disapproving of people wearing make-up and/or jewellery. It certainly persisted in my own school in the late 1990s.

Mia's comment about make-up in school uniform being a bit odd also has a lot to do with it. Schools do tend to want their pupils to reflect well on them and perhaps the 'studious type' is more convincing when make-up is more discreet. Just a thought.

Also - the identity of the Chalet girls is based on them being children, at least until they are prefects and takes that to extremes in her views on make-up, dress and choice of entertainment. Most of us would have been 'teenagers', but EBD keeps her girls as 'Juniors', 'Middles' and 'Seniors' even when the term 'teenager' became common. They seem to keep to 'childish things' though - no drinking or smoking. As to marrying early - that may well be a social change.

I'm not sure what to make of the comments about being interested in clothes or not. Could be that EBD means to imply that girls who do take more than a passing interest are seen to be shallow.

This is getting a bit long, so I'll go and do some work!

#23:  Author: KarryLocation: Stoke on Trent PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:32 am
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I can remember my mother's rather acid comments about girls my age who "plastered themsevels" in makeup in the early seventies (No not age, but decades!). I was allowed at the age of sixteen to have sublte blue eyeshadow and virtually clear lipstick! In my parents view, too much makeup was tartish. And no, they were not religious, but on average 15 years older than my contemporaries parents!

ETA
Quote:
I'd agree with most of the posters so far who have mentioned 'class' and often less than thinly-disguised snobbery as reasons for disapproving of people wearing make-up and/or jewellery. It certainly persisted in my own school in the late 1990s.
My parents were firmly working class - and proud of it!

#24:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:38 pm
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Cath V-P wrote:
But with EBD maybe the intention was the important thing? Subtle make-up used as discreet enhancement vs. lots of it used as blatant advertising? I'm not sure.


I think you have something there - and that's why Joey and the rouge was wrong. She wore it to try and deliberately hide something (her pallor caused by toothache) so her intent was to deceive (and be a spineless jellyfish by dodging the dentist).

Caroline.

#25:  Author: KateLocation: Ireland PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:02 pm
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Cath V-P wrote:
But with EBD maybe the intention was the important thing? Subtle make-up used as discreet enhancement vs. lots of it used as blatant advertising? I'm not sure.


Definitely think you're on to something.

Makeup is banned in my mum's school too although it's tolerated if it's tasteful (she's an assistant principal in a secondary school). I think the unspoken reason is because heavy makeup (eyeshadow and red lipppy etc) often shows that the girl in question's mind is not quite on her studies! Whereas if it's light, it's not as distracting. I have also noticed that they're quite lenient on a couple of girls who wear very thick foundation and I wondered why - I'm not certain, but I think it's because they wear it to cover an acne problem... in these cases, the teachers are quite understanding.

I hate wearing makeup every day, but I love it on special occasions and sometimes just to make myself feel good. Smile

#26:  Author: PollyLocation: Essex PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:56 am
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It is the bright orange foundation and the mascara that looks like a spider with enough eyeliner to do a good panda impression that I think is the funniest! And they have the gall to swear blind that they haven't got any makeup on. Shocked Laughing

I have to say, I think that girls ought to have leesons in how to make themselves up properly when they are in the first couple of years at secondary school. I know that is a little young, especially as most schools (mine included) do not allow makeup to be worn below Year 10, but they wear it anyway, so as we are never going to stop it completely, we could at least teach them how to apply it properly!

Especially to get rid of the day-glo orange! Laughing Laughing Laughing

#27:  Author: Róisín PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:14 am
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Yes, that's a fabulous proposition. Then they would be actually able to do it discreetly and well. Oh well, a perfect world...

#28:  Author: jenniferLocation: Taiwan PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:55 am
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Mind you, I recently came across a discussion of how much makeup it was appropriate for a ten year old to wear in public - not if, but how much.

I think the training idea is a good one, as is working their way up - start with lip gloss or neutral shades of lipstick and gradually add more as they get older, rather than slathering it on at 11 or 12 years old. You could add perfume to the list as well - I've met some young girls who have apparently bathed in scent, under the more is better philosophy.

The look I really hate is the low rise pants and cropped top with "Porn Star" or "Slut" or "Princess" across the front in sparkly letters (or "Juicy" across the butt) on girls who are about fourteen - the sexual clothes and logos combined with the obvious youngness of the girl gives out a message of sexually available but really naive.

#29: Re: Powder and Lipstick Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:41 am
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Maeve wrote:
I just reread Goes To It and am struck by how everyone - the staff, Joey, the prefects - react to the 14-going-on-15 year olds experimenting with nail polish, lipstick, etc.

It's a while since I've read Goes To It, but isn't it not so much the makeup, as that Betty and Co knew that what they were doing was inappropriate? - Appearing in makeup and headscarves in front of visitors, for example, and then being cheeky about it.

I think also one has to remember the long period over which the books were written. What was unacceptable in the '20s and '30s had become acceptable by the '50s and '60s.

Plus there wouldn't have been the range of makeup products available then that there is today, and what there was, probably wasn't suitable for the skin of very young girls. Even when I and my contemporaries began to experiment with makeup in the late '60s, foundations were quite thick and heavy and really didn't look right on schoolgirls. And neither did the thick black eyeliner and mascara that was fashionable at the time. And there were no hypo-allergenic products - I only tried mascara a few times because it irritated my eyes.

Jay B.



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