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#1: Napolean Author: Nicci, Location: UK

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:24 pm

I don't remember this being discussed before, though I'm probably wrong (I usually am!). But does anyone know where Joey's obsession with Napolean comes from? Was he a heroic figure of EBDs?

#2: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:15 pm

Not that I know of. I think that EBD gave Jo her obsession with Napoleon as a way to make her interesting.

#3: Napoleon Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:10 pm

It might just have been because Paris was an obvious first stop for Madge, Grizel and Joey on the way to the Tyrol at the beginning of the series so EBD just wanted to make Jo interested in any figure from French history to show the contrast between Jo and Grizel ... but I've just made that theory up! Odd choice of "hero" given that Napoleon was a bit of a villain in the history of the Tyrol as well as the history of the U.K. One of the Hapsburgs would have been more appropriate!

#4: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:42 pm

*Admits to having 'done a Joey' at Napoleon's tomb when young. All I knew about him at the time was that Joey Bettany liked him so I must! * Embarassed

Must admit no one turned a hair!

#5: Author: Gabrielle, Location: Washington DC

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:20 am

Shamefully admits to never having seen Napoleon's tomb. Embarassed

Before all of you say you haven't either, I should point out I grew up in and near Paris so it was a metro ride away. I've added that to the list of things I should do Someday. But I do agree its a really odd choice. I don't particularly admire Napoleon but I don't know that much about him. He's not a historical figure I've ever been particularly interested in. I guess EBD figured that Joey should be obssessed with some historical figure, so why not Napoleon? (clutching at straws here!)

#6: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:54 am

At the time (not forgetting that the first book came out before Hitler, before Stalin, before Mao, etc.), Napoleon was probably the best-known historical figure.

#7: Author: Tiphany,

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:38 pm

I'd assumed he was EBD's hero, or at least a pet topic of hers. She was more interested in history than anything else, wasn't she? She describes history lessons more than the others in the books, and repeatedly talks about historical methods - reasoning from cause to effect and so on (which you'd think would matter for science, but I don't think she mentions it in that context). Is Joey a self-portrait, or a wish-fulfilment figure? If so, she'd have the same hero as EBD...

#8: Napoleon Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:52 pm

Maybe it was because the Napoleonic Wars took place in George III's time and Joey was interested in reading about the times of a king who had 15 children ... if the series had carried on she would probably have had two more sets of twins and ended up with 15 as well!

#9: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:10 pm

KB wrote:

(not forgetting that the first book came out before Hitler, before Stalin, before Mao, etc.),

Although, presumably Joey would not be a fan of any of these three... Shocked

#10: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:49 pm

Tiphany wrote:

Is Joey a self-portrait, or a wish-fulfilment figure? If so, she'd have the same hero as EBD...

EBD consistently denies this in the newsletters, and personally I think her wish-fulfilment figures are Madge and Miss Annersley during their periods as Head Mistresses.

#11: Author: MissPrint, Location: Edinburgh

Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:25 am

KB wrote:

Tiphany wrote:

Is Joey a self-portrait, or a wish-fulfilment figure? If so, she'd have the same hero as EBD...

EBD consistently denies this in the newsletters, and personally I think her wish-fulfilment figures are Madge and Miss Annersley during their periods as Head Mistresses.

She does deny it a little too much. I think Joey is a bit of a Mary-Sue, esp older Joey having it all career success and motherhood, and her solid lump of comfort.

#12: Author: Lyanne, Location: Ipswich, England

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:25 am

Quote:

KB wrote: (not forgetting that the first book came out before Hitler, before Stalin, before Mao, etc.), Although, presumably Joey would not be a fan of any of these three...

Idly wonders who will be bitten by the communist Joey bunny...

#13: Communist Joey Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:00 am

[/quote]Idly wonders who will be bitten by the communist Joey bunny...[/quote] I can't see Joey as a communist! I'm just thinking about her reminding herself that she was lucky to have Anna and the "Coadjutor" because some people had to manage with - shock horror - no "help" at all, and going on about how "frightfully poor" the Bettanys were before they started the school. I think some sort of patronising Victorian paternalism was more the Chalet School's thing, like making nighties for poor people in Innsbruck! Having said which, Joey probably thought that she was really into social equality, like when she told Rosamund Lilley that all anyone cared about was that a girl was "decent and sporting"!

#14: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:02 pm

I've seen Napoleon's tomb! I was in Paris last week and we went to see it. It's strange to look at this big red coffin and know one of the most famous people in history is inside. Napoleon did achieve a lot, and was full of character. I think it would be interesting to read about his life, and I can easily see how an admiration could develop. Perhaps another reason that Joey chose him to admire would be that Napoleon isn't simply another figure from history, like the Hapsburgs, but is instead a name that virtually everyone knows even if you have no interest in history. By the way, does anyone know why Napoleon divorced Josephine when they were meant to be so much in love? Was it for political reasons, so he could marry Marie-Louise of Austria and hence gain an ally?

#15: Author: Kathryn, Location: Kyabram (north of Melb)

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:01 pm

Sarah_L wrote:

By the way, does anyone know why Napoleon divorced Josephine when they were meant to be so much in love? Was it for political reasons, so he could marry Marie-Louise of Austria and hence gain an ally?

Yep, and i think it was also related to the fact that they didn't/couldn't have kids. From *rusty* memory Josephine had kids with her first husband, but not with Nap and for him to cement his rule of Europe, it was necessary for him to have kids to marry into the established ruling families of Europe. With M-L, they had a number who were then successfully married off.

#16: Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:29 am

Thanks for the quick reply! I've always heard of Napoleon and Josephine as if they are a perfect example of a couple in love, but when I was in Les Invalides last week the display mentioned their divorce and then Napoleon's new marriage. Was that in 1814? I'm sure I remember that date, but it seems too late.

#17: Author: Kathryn, Location: Kyabram (north of Melb)

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:13 am

It was in 1810 when Nap arranged for the nullification of their marriage. Josephine died in 1814.

#18: Re: Napoleon Author: claire, Location: South Wales

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:18 pm

Alison H wrote:

if the series had carried on she would probably have had two more sets of twins and ended up with 15 as well!

No - I think had the series carried on she would have had the set of quads she was talking about so often (just had an image of EBD planning these quads and her plot bunny wouldn't let her write it in)

#19: Author: Guest,

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:01 am

Kathryn wrote:

Sarah_L wrote:

Josephine had 2 children by her first husband so, when she and Napoleon had no children, it was assumed that it was Napoleon who couldn't have children. However, he then had a "relationship" with a Polish countess called Marie Walewska, which was apparently supposed to cement good relations between Napoleonic France and the Grand Duchy of Warsaw set up at that time, and they had a child together, so then he knew that he could have children, and he divorced Josephine. I think there was also a bit of social climbing involved in that he liked the idea of marrying a Hapsburg!

There's a potential link there with the discussion about why Captain Humphries was in Russia and the mystery of Mrs Humphries' origins...

#20: Author: LadyGuinevere, Location: Leicester

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm

Interestingly, I've just been reading Little Women and in that, Laurie cites Napoleon as one of his heros (along with his grandfather).

I wonder if that had any effect on EBD?

#21: Author: JackieJ, Location: Kingston upon Hull

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:53 pm

Slightly OT but related to the last post.

In the Alcott books, Josephine Mary March (JMM) becomes Josephine Mary Bhaer (JMB), In the CS, the direction of initials is reversed (JMB becomes JMM) but both write under the JMB name. You have to wonder how much EBD liked the Alcott's

JackieJ

#22: Author: Alice, Location: London, England

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:52 pm

That's really interesting Jackie, I'd never thought of it.

#23: Author: Alex, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:50 pm

Given that Napolean's wives were called Josephine and Mary-Louise I'm beginning to think EBD might have been a fan of him. Confused

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