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#1: Grizel's father Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:35 am
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I'd always thought that Grizel's stepmother was the baddie, but re-reading School at the CS today, I'm struck by how appalling her father was. He

Quote:

... had married again, most unaccountably, without informing his second wife of the fact that he had a daughter.

When Mrs. Cochrane suggests sending Grizel to school, he cooly

Quote:

... pointed out that if she were sent away at once people would talk.

Given such terrible parents - and her real mother,

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...a fragile, complaining being, who lay on a couch all day, and said ‘Hush!’ in fretful tones whenever her little daughter ventured to raise her voice.

- doesn't seem much better, I think Grizel is fantastic for the way in which she overcomes such abuse.

Guess I don't actually have a question here - but I was so stunned when I noticed this, I had to vent a bit!

#2: Author: ibarhis, Location: London and Hemel Hempstead

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:04 am
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Agreed! I always thought Neil Sheppard was a really nice character and how 'lucky' Grizel was to meet him when she was able to receive love as well as give it...

#3: Author: Tan, Location: London via Newcastle Australia

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:05 am
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I have always been struck by the fact that he didn't tell his wife about Grizel. Didn't he also forget her birthday as well?

Mind you, another of my favourite childrens authors (Mary Grant Bruce - Billabong series) uses a similar plot device.

#4: Author: Mia, Location: London

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:08 am
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I think Neil is one of the nicest doctors actually, so Grizel did get her reward in the end.

I had to laugh when someone (sorry I forget who) pointed out the other day that he was travelling around Europe with a book of baby names*, maybe he just really really wanted to get married and settle down? Bless!

*(and then they chose Nigel!) Laughing

#5: Author: ibarhis, Location: London and Hemel Hempstead

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:25 am
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Hey, I had a huge crush on someone called Nigel when I was at school! Very Happy

#6: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:31 am
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Apparently EBD's own father had a child by a previous marriage who didn't live with them. The mother was dead, so the poor child lived in lodgings - this, according to Helen McLelland, was possible EBD's inspiration for Grizel's story.

#7: Author: ibarhis, Location: London and Hemel Hempstead

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:03 am
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iirc, didn't Tolkein live in lodgings as a schoolboy after the death of his parents. I seem to remember his guardian was a priest!

#8: Author: Fatima, Location: Sunny Qatar

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:03 pm
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My dad's called Nigel and I was always thrilled to read about Nigel in the books as it was nice to think there was someone who liked the name!

I agree about Neil; I was always glad that Grizel ended up with someone so nice.

#9: Author: Róisín,

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:56 pm
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And in the 'colour' frontispiece to Reunion, he looks like Rhett Butler! (Neil) Very Happy

#10: Re: Grizel's father Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:59 pm
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Maeve wrote:

I'd always thought that Grizel's stepmother was the baddie, but re-reading School at the CS today, I'm struck by how appalling her father was. He

Quote:

... had married again, most unaccountably, without informing his second wife of the fact that he had a daughter.

Someone - possibly Helen McL or Rosemary Auchmuty - pointed out that in real life that would be grounds for an anullment or divorce. Confused

#11: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:08 pm
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I would hope so! Evil or Very Mad

I don't know that but I'm glad to hear it.

#12: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:38 pm
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Grizel's family situation has always seemed pretty horrible to me too. The thing that puzzles me is, why on earth was her dad so set on forcing her into music? Did he have a secret love for it, or was Grizel's mum musical?

#13: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:46 pm
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I think it was more that he had paid for all these expensive music lessons and so wanted a return on his investment. The fact that he condemned his child to doing something that she didn't like and prevented her from following her dream didn't matter at all.

(Horrible man)

#14: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:30 pm
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An attitude that is still around. A friend of my daughter wanted to study music at university, but was forced to do pharmacy instead. Parents said that was the only thing they would support financially. Mind you, I badly wanted my very linguisticallly gifted daughter to carry on her languages as well as her music, but I accepted that it was her life and her choice, and I can imagine her reaction if I'd tried to insist! Keep your money would have been the very mildest reply. But you have to be pretty strong to go forth, unsupported, into the unknown, and it would have been much worse for Grizel, many fewer options.

#15: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:28 pm
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She wanted to be a Games teacher, but I always wondered why she didn't get involved in the Games at the CS. She wouldn't have to be qualified to ref the odd hockey game or coach a bit of tennis. Neither did she seem to join any local club at Plas Howells. There's never any mention of Miss Cochrane being good at tennis, hockey etc. Do you think maybe EBD forgot? (Perish the thought!)

#16: Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:47 am
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Perhaps she didn't get involved with the games because it was "too close" - too upsetting for her to be on the periphery of what she truly wanted to do/easier to just push it away? (if that makes sense?)

#17: Author: Maeve, Location: Romania

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:23 am
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I always wondered why the heads allowed her to continue teaching without any attempts at intervention into her teaching style - they only appear on the scene when a crisis occurs, like setting Len on fire. I'm not suggesting they should have fired her, but given how long most of them had known her, couldn't Biddy or Nancy Wilmot or Hilary Burns or someone have sidled up to her and given a few gentle or not so gentle hints?

I also find it strange that not one single pupil has anything good to say for her - they all unamimously fear her and dislike lessons with her. And she doesn't seem to like any of them. Thinking back to my own schooldays, even the really sarcastic teachers always had some advocates who enjoyed them in spite of their sarcasm, etc., and the said teachers always had some students who escaped their tongue.

#18: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:33 am
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I agree that both Grizel's father and stepmother were emotionally abusive, in modern terms.

Her father dumps her on his mother for five years and reappears with a resentful stepmother in tow. He makes no effort to protect Grizel from her stepmother's abuse, ships her off to school when the opportunity is presented, forces her into a career she dislikes and is poor at (while technically brilliant she has no flare for musical expression, and she dislikes teaching) and when he dies manages to extend his hold on her by keeping her inheritance in trust until she is 35, and much too old to retrain for a new career.

My impression was that if she had refused to pursue music after leaving school she would have been cast out to fend for herself with no particular training and no funds, making her situation pretty dire. I suppose she could have waited until she was of age, and gone off to work in a shop somewhere.

#19: Author: Caroline58, Location: St Albans

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:43 pm
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I've always felt that the Chalet School (unwittingly) nearly destroyed Grizel, turning her from an enthusiastic, jolly, vigorous, charming, sometimes thoughtlessly unkind (but not much more than teenage Joey) schoolgirl. When she was doing a great job as headgirl I don't remember her being sarcastic and hard - she soon apologized for losing her temper with Deira. The adult Grizel is entirely different in character from the schoolgirl Grizel and it is wrong to describe her has having always been hard, as Miss Annersly etc. sometimes do. The schoolgirl would never have torn people to shreds with her sarcasm in a way that verged on bullying. In fact, if I remember rightly, she was patient in her games coaching at least.

Even while doing her music studies she was happy - remember when she returns with Gerry during the measles she is first introduced as a girl with laughing grey eyes? It's only once she begins teaching at the annexe that she becomes the sort of person who shrugs graceful shoulders (sorry - all books buried because of building work and can't check any quotes). I feel that the schoool put unconscious pressure on her to return to teach, first at the annexe and then at the school proper, rather than looking around. Maybe because of her unhappy relationship with her parents she felt there would be emotional security there.

But I don't think the security was there. She would have enjoyed working with Juliet building up the annexe. But then I can imagine her drumming out hymn tunes at assembly in Guernsey and the island and thinking "God, what has happened to me?" Before she left school she was very nearly part of the Russell family - I bet she had, if not her own room, at least her own drawers at their house with toiletries and a change of undies. Once the school re-forms in the UK she is no longer even part of Joey's outer circle of friends. I'm sure that if she had got a job, even just teaching music, at a modern day school somewhere she'd have had her own flat or maybe shared, she'd have mixed with a wider circle of people, and made real friends. She would have joined a tennis club and kept her sports up, gone on rambles, etc. She had not one single friend at the school once she'd become a teacher - whereas she had lots at school. She is largely left out of school discussions - after defending Gay's teaching of the cello to Jacynth she simply makes the odd sarcastic remark. I think she just became left out, unloved, no friends, miserable in her choice of career and totally unrewared at the Chalet School. I'm sure that if anyone had asked her to help out with games or maths coaching she'd have jumped at it.

Sorry this is so long, but I'm glad to have got it off my chest and would love to know other people's thoughts.

Caroline

#20: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 8:27 pm
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I agree that Grizel was thoroughly miserable as a teacher, and I do feel really sorry for her - she seems to get left out and people seem to do a lot of bitching about her behind her back.

I wish she'd had the guts to leave sooner, though. For someone who was supposed to have such a strong personality, she didn't seem to be able to strike out on her own. I suppose it would have been difficult for an 18 year old girl to have defied her father over the music thing - although other people managed to get through teacher training without loads of financial support from home, and she did have some money inherited from her grandmother, probably more than Madge had when she started up the School - but she didn't have to stay at the School afterwards. It's not even like she was clinging to it as being her home - she wasn't particularly friendly with anyone there.

When she eventually asked for help - borrowing the money to set up in business with Deira - Hilda offered like a shot. I'm sure she'd've been only too glad to let Grizel help with Games coaching if Grizel'd ever asked.

It's quite weird how EBD made someone who was with the school from the first chapter of the first book into such an outsider - all the other Old Girls who come back as teachers seem to be really happy. Poor Grizel Crying or Very sad

#21: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:31 am
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From Gay

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I know that both Madame and Hilda like to fell that she's where they can keep an eye on her. She has no home not hat Mr Cochrane's dead; and she's done some wildly wrong-headed things at intervals all her life. I doubt if Madame would ever consent to letting her go, but we needn't tell Grizel that

From that I get the impression that there was a huge pressure from the school to keep her in her teaching role so they can keep an eye on her.

As a girl, Grizel comes off as occasionally sarcastic and overbearing, and inclined to 'doing mad things' - she does run off twice. Then again, Joey is overly sharp tongued when angry, tactless, and prone to 'doing mad things' as well.

I would agree that it's in the move from Austria that Grizel becomes bitter. At the Annexe she was one of only a few teachers, and probably got more varied duties (as far as I can tell it was her and Juliet doing most of the work up there). At the school proper she was one of many mistresses. Herr Anserl got the advanced pupils and Grizel got the people who weren't serious about music, and as Caroline58 pointed out, she does seem to be dropped from the Maynard/Bettany/Russell circle pretty thoroughly.

A theory: Maybe Grizel had fallen for Jack Maynard while working up at the Sonnalpe, and was heartbroken when he proposed to Joey, who was always more popular and better liked than Grizel. It would be particularly galling to have to watch Joey's blissful happiness and multiple offspring (and her boasting thereof) if she were trying to get over unrequited love.

Grizel strikes me as the type who could fall very hard for someone, and have a great deal of difficulty letting them see how she felt, so the others would have no idea how she felt.

#22: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:53 am
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Interesting theory about Grizel and Jack!

I'd never thought of that ... but, come to think about it, when Robin tells Grizel that Joey and Jack are engaged, Grizel says that Joey'd never wanted to get married and that she can't believe that "even" Jack Maynard could make her change her mind. Maybe the "even" comment shows that she thinks Jack's the Sonnalpe sex symbol or something Wink

#23: Author: Caroline58, Location: St Albans

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:09 am
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jennifer wrote:

From Gay

Quote:

So let's add up and compare the wrong-headed things that Grizel has done and the wrong-headed things that Joey did... Is there anything at all apart from the Tiernjoch and the Falls of the Rhine affairs? And then we could add up the contribution that she made to the school - getting games going and coaching the other pupils, a great year as headgirl, acting as a surrogate mistress (along with Gerry) even though she was still a student herself, helping get the annexe going... One day (when I've unburied my books) I'll make a longer list!

I really don't believe that there is justification for somehow keeping her a prisoner at the CS in case she goes out into the world doing wrong-headed things! It's all a case of EBD (or the CS) labelling Grizel as someone that she isn't, and then turning her into that demon.

C

#24: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:32 am
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jennifer wrote:

A theory: Maybe Grizel had fallen for Jack Maynard while working up at the Sonnalpe, and was heartbroken when he proposed to Joey,

Someone wrote a short drabble about that once here if anyone wants to read it

#25: Author: Róisín,

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:03 pm
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That little drabble is excellent, thanks for the link Liz. And totally plausible too. I'm seeing poor Grizel in a whole new light. Sad

#26: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:21 pm
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It does seem highly patronising of Madge and Hilda. As an adult woman Grizel could run up the Tiernjoch and off to the Falls of Rhine as often as she liked. Is it the Victorian idea that as an unmarried woman she needs to be protected? The poor woman is bored out of her mind. It's a pity she didn't join up during the war years. Her tasks as assistant music mistress would not be onerous. I don't think it was ever mentioned that she was ever a Form Mistress and they don't seem to have class music lessons, so she would teach girls on a one-to-one and be accompanist - very dull.

#27: Author: Rob, Location: Derbyshire, England

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:23 pm
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I seem to remember from Gay that she gave her lessons during lunchtime - what did she do with the rest of her time?

#28: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:49 pm
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Mel wrote:

It does seem highly patronising of Madge and Hilda. As an adult woman Grizel could run up the Tiernjoch and off to the Falls of Rhine as often as she liked. Is it the Victorian idea that as an unmarried woman she needs to be protected?

I don't think it's that at all. I think it's more to do with wanting Grizel to have somewhere she could call home. The bit in Gay is misleading, in some senses, because I think what they're trying to do is prevent Grizel from just burning her bridges and storming off (and let's face it, Grizel HAS done just that on occasion).

I think the speaker in that quote (Joey, perhaps?) is wrong, because I can't imagine Madge forcing Grizel to stay (and, in fact, when the decision's taken for her to leave, in Carola, Miss Annersley actively helps Grizel to leave), but what they wanted to avoid at all costs was Grizel leaving on bad terms and, possibly, ending up in trouble.

Given that, when Reunion opens, she's all but suicidal and only the thought of getting to Joey is providing her with any respite, that's probably a fair assessment.

So far as what she actually does, she's the head of the music department by the time Gay rolls around, which means she's in charge of over-seeing all the visiting masters/mistresses; it's to her that Gay goes when she wants permission to use a music room to teach Jacynth, so she's presumably in charge of the practice time tables and she teaches as well (I doubt she purely teaches in her lunch break!) so I wouldn't have said she wasn't busy.

Ray *not sure if she's making sense*

#29: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:11 pm
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EBd wanted a baddy to contrast with Jo, so she wrote Grizel as she was. If we look at the behaviour of the pair of them, Jo is equally as bad as Grizel. In fact, I would class Jo's leading a party of Middles out to the Ice Carnival as far worse than anything Grizel ever did. Grizel might have been stubborn, but she gave much to the school, and in running off, endangered only herself, not others, whereas the girls might have been in serious danger out on the ice at night.

Grizel is often described as 'hard', but when we think about the way Jo treated Eustacia Benson, clearly impatient with the girl, expecting her to settle in immediately and absorb the mores of the school through her skin, isn't Jo equally hard? And the way she treats some of the younger ones, Jo makes it quite clear that she finds them boring and nuisances.

#30: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:29 pm
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At least Grizel did her training and got a job! When Jo left school, she wasn't really thinking seriously of making a career as a writer (she was just writing bedtime stories for Daisy at that point) and she just seemed to think she was going to be supported by the Russells and occasionally lend a hand with the kids (even though they employed Rosa as a nanny) - whereas Jem's sister Margot went out to work as a Matron when she came to live in Tyrol. Sorry for going OT but Jo is annoying me at the moment Laughing

!!

I wonder what made EBD suddenly decide to give Grizel a lovely doctor and a happy ending, unless it was just the fact that it was the 50th book and she wanted to sort out the School's 2nd ever pupil's life Confused

#31: Author: Chelsea, Location: Your Imagination

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:12 pm
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Mel wrote:

But, those events occured before Grizel was an adult woman - they were both whilst Grizel was a CS pupil, not a CS mistress.

#32: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:04 pm
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Ray wrote:

Mel wrote:

I agree with this in the pb part of the speech is cut out (it's Miss W who says it btw) and when I read it I felt it just sounded like Madge wanted to keep Grizel close to her so she could act as a surrogate mother. Grizel no longer lives with the Russells etc cos she's a grown woman but Madge doesn't want her to get completely out of touch.

In fairness to them Grizel is pretty reckless. So is Joey, but she's younger so it's not as bad (even in Princess she's still younger than Grizel was when she ran off to the Teirnjoch). She's also often described as having a hard streak, I'm sure, in the earlier books. This is probably a natural result of her upbringing and quite realistic really.

Grizel and Joey are pretty pally earlier on, but grow apart. As Joey gets married and has kids and so on, I think Grizel felt left out - she's a bit like Simone really in that respect. So she pushes herself away from Joey by pretending she doesn't care as much. As for Madge, as she grew older Grizel wouldn't be so keen on the kind of mothering she gets from Madge as a child/young girl.

#33: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:23 pm
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[b]What I meant was that going up the Tiernjoch and to the Falls of Rhine are the only 'wild ' things that Grizel has done. It's suggested that they want to keep her at the Chalet School to keep her safe from wrong-doing. [i]It [i]should[/i] be to provide her with a home, but as it has been said, Jo and Madge aren't particularly friendly with her.[/i][/b]

#34: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:26 pm
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Sorry that looks so odd - I messed up the italics and pressed submit by mistake

#35: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:17 am
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Actually, when I think of it I could really see Grizel being wildly envious of Joey and having her constantly at hand helping her resentment grow.

They are the first two students of the Chalet school. They both had reputations while at school for doing 'mad things', however Joey's are regarded as amusing anecdotes, while Grizel's are 'wrongheaded'.

Grizel runs off twice, is overbearing in her first term as Games prefect, and clashes with Deira, something that isn't really her fault. Joey
runs of to the ice carnival, after Grizel, after Elisaveta, after the Saints and after Rufus, pulls childish pranks while a prefect, and clashes badly with Matrons Bubb and Webb, Eustacia, Elaine Gilling adn Joyce Linton, and is permanently thrown out of art class for bad behaviour, and tends to act out when over-excited, even as Head Girl.

Grizel has an uncaring father and abusive stepmother, while Joey, although an orphan, has a loving extended family.

Grizel is forced to study music against her wishes and talents, and forced into teaching, which she dislikes. Joey goes home where she is supported as she works on her instantly successful writing career, until she marries a handsome doctor and has masses of adorable children.

Grizel is not liked by the students and is regarded as an impatient and sharp tongued teacher. She is in the background in school affaris and doesn't appear to be close to anyone, including the Maynards and Russells.

Joey is beloved by all the students and staff, is in the middle of all school affairs and is greeted with glee on the rare occasions she comes in to substitute. She had masses of friends, a large, loving extended family and is in close contact wtih dozens of old girls.

If you throw in the theory that Grizel was in love with Jack Maynard when he proposed to the golden child, Joey, I could see her becoming more bitter as Joey gets everything she wants and a blissfully happy life while Grizel is slogging away at something she hates doing, watching other classmates come in, teach for a few years (beloved by all the students), marry handsome doctors and be carried off.

#36: Author: Richenda,

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:21 pm
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I've always liked Grizel and thought she got the rough end of the deal where EBD was concerned.

I agree that perhaps Grizel would have been happier outside the CS world, and the difference between the Head Girl/Rivals Grizel and the Exile Grizel is marked.

In fact, I think I have a bunny nibbling......

#37: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:32 pm
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I don't think that Grizel was pushed into teaching. She had one year in Florence, studying music, an accomplishment, acceptable to her father and stepmother, as in being 'finished'. Then presumably she was supposed to go 'home'. The invitation, by Madge, to join the Annexe Staff must have seemed a gift from Heaven for all concerned. I can't see Mrs C wanting a grown-up Grizel at home. I imagine that she was happy at first in a place she loved, with Juliet, Jo and Gisela nearby. Then when Juliet left and even Joey got married she would begin to feel bitter and lonely. I suppose a sort of inertia set in and she went on drearily for years until the trip to New Zealand was suggested. Poor Grizel!

#38: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:47 pm
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Didn't something similar happen with Rosalie? Her father remarried and had a "second family" after her mother's death, and Rosalie felt that her stepmother -although there's no suggestion that her stepmother was as bad as Grizel's - wouldn't want her around, so being a secretary at the CS seemed like a good option.

#39: Author: Fatima, Location: Sunny Qatar

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:21 pm
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I got the impression that it was more Rosalie's feeling that she ought to stay out of the way - she was not much younger than the stepmother, and she then had a couple of very much younger half brothers. I thought it was more that she felt awkward being around and appearing to be the lady of the house instead of the stepmother. I may be quite wrong on this one, though!

#40: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:08 pm
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Yes - I think Rosalie felt that her stepmother wouldn't want her around, it wasn't that her stepmother actually said so. I just meant that she was another one who kind of ended up being at the School because it seemed better than being at home. Poor Rosalie - the only excitement she ever seemed to get was ending up still, grey etc in Highland Twins!

#41: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:12 pm
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And we never really find out why!!!??? Confused

#42: Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:46 pm
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And even that is cut out of the paperback!

#43: Author: Cath V-P, Location: Newcastle NSW

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:47 am
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Lesley said:

Quote:

And we never really find out why!!!???

Hmmm...something for a tiny drabblet perhaps? Wink

#44: Author: Richenda,

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:04 pm
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LizB wrote:

jennifer wrote:

A theory: Maybe Grizel had fallen for Jack Maynard while working up at the Sonnalpe, and was heartbroken when he proposed to Joey,

Someone wrote a short drabble about that once here if anyone wants to read it

Ooooh that was mine!!

D'you know I missed pages 2 & 3 of this discussion somehow!

I agree that EBD wanted a contrast to Jo and Robin who were all sweetness & light. I've always wondered whether Grizel also represented EBD herself as she actually was, rather than who she wanted to be (Jo/Madge)

#45: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:17 pm
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jennifer wrote:

Actually, when I think of it I could really see Grizel being wildly envious of Joey and having her constantly at hand helping her resentment grow.

They are the first two students of the Chalet school. They both had reputations while at school for doing 'mad things', however Joey's are regarded as amusing anecdotes, while Grizel's are 'wrongheaded'.

I think part of the difference is that Joey is still perceived as a child when she does these things. Grizel is more than two years older, and there's a perception that she 'should know better'. She's a Sixth Former when she runs off in Head Girl - that's loads more serious than most of Jo's escapades.

There's also a little element of Joey generally meaning well when she runs off and does daft things, whereas Grizel's mad actions are portrayed by EBD as being generally less well-intentioned - she does things for more selfish reasons or to 'get back' at someone.

Of course, the ice carnival doesn't fit into this model, but I think we can put that down to the mischief of middles. It's not like Jo's a senior who leads younger girls astray, she's just a kid on a spree with other kids.

Caroline.

#46: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:06 pm
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I'm just reading the transcript of the hb of Head Girl - thank you Keren and Roisín! - and there's a conversation in it between several girls about Grizel's future. Grizel says that she'd like to do a maths degree like Juliet and then do research because she really doesn't want to teach, but that her father's making her study music. Evadne says that if her father was being like that she'd try to talk him round, and - of course! - Maria Marani and Frieda Mensch are both really shocked that Evadne would even think of disagreeing with her father or saying that Grizel should disagree with hers.

#47: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:51 am
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Alison H wrote:

Yes - I think Rosalie felt that her stepmother wouldn't want her around, it wasn't that her stepmother actually said so.

From Reunion, when Joey asks Rosalie why she's never married.

Quote:

No, my love, there's never been anyone and I don't care if there never is. I'm quite satisfied with my present life. Remember; I have roots. Grizel loathed her stepmother and there wasn't much love lost between her father and herself. I adore Dad and my stepmother is a poppet. Oh, I don't say that if I'd stayed at home we shouldn't have got across each other. We probably should. As it is, we're real friends. I think a lot of young Peter and Robin and they're quite fond of me.

So I get the feeling Rosalie quite liked her stepmother, but had no desire to stay at home as an adult, helping out but not in charge, and waiting around to be married, and that she likes her her life.

I know that I get along very well with my parents, but that I have no desire to move back in with them for more than an extended visit, and we probably would clash if I lived there.

#48: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:34 am
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Alison H wrote:

Maria Marani and Frieda Mensch are both really shocked that Evadne would even think of disagreeing with her father or saying that Grizel should disagree with hers.

Their fathers are fairly reasonable people though. I'd like to see their reactions if their fathers tried to stop them from marrying or attending the school or something like that!

#49: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:48 pm
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Caroline wrote:

I agree with this. Joey is never really bad, except when she runs off to the Carnival along with other girls her own age who are totally up for it. When Grizel runs off to the Tiernjoch, or the Rhine, it's an outright act of rebellion as well as being stupid.

Personally I think EBD was really fond of Grizel and wanted to gve her one book in which to shine - which is obviously Head Girl. Grizel misbehaves in that book, running off to the Rhine and being sarcastic and so on, but she also gets a chance to commit multiple acts of heroism. Then EBD has to let her get all bitter to show the effects of her awful upbringing.

Joey's misbehaviour I think came from EBD's wanting to make her realistic rather than a plaster saint.

#50: Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:56 pm
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Problem is, Joey was realistic as a child and young woman, but later in the series she seems to become a paragon without fault.

#51: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:12 pm
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Lesley wrote:

Problem is, Joey was realistic as a child and young woman, but later in the series she seems to become a paragon without fault.

And as a child and young woman even Joey wasn't above criticism, I think we see Madge, Hilda and Nell showing impatience with her at times when she behaves inappropriately.

I'm a little unsympathetic towards Grizel because it wasn't necessary to stick with teaching music if she disliked it so much. In the 1930s and 1940s it was perfectly possible to get a post in a private school without any training - Madge herself had none, and talks of getting a post in a school at the beginning of School At. I'm sure Grizel could have found a job as a games mistress somewhere if she'd really wanted to.

Jay B.

#52: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm
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I'm not sure about that - whatever about maths and English, I'd say you'd need training for Games as there's the possibility of injury. Games mistresses were also in charge of massage and remedials which would definitely have needed training - you could cause someone damage if you did them wrongly.

#53: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:39 pm
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Kate wrote:

Games mistresses were also in charge of massage and remedials which would definitely have needed training - you could cause someone damage if you did them wrongly.

I suppose that would depend on whether the school wanted to offer those things. Would they be extras, like music? The CS is the only fictional school where I can recall them being mentioned. Doesn't Peggy Burnett say somewhere she has a special interest in remedials? And a day school I should think would be more likely to leave it to the parents.

Jay B.

#54: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:35 pm
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Maybe, I hadn't thought of that. *ponders*

I do think Grizel got to a stage (around Carola) that she almost enjoyed being miserable and didn't want to do anything about it.

#55: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:45 pm
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Lesley wrote:

Problem is, Joey was realistic as a child and young woman, but later in the series she seems to become a paragon without fault.

Well, I think EBD got so attached to her she couldn't give her the faults she had done previously. I know when I'm writing a story it's hard to create a really bad, and yet realistic character. I suppose it's the same sort of thing. I haven't read most of the later books though, so I can't really judge.

Jay B wrote:

I'm sure Grizel could have found a job as a games mistress somewhere if she'd really wanted to.

But she maybe didn't fancy the idea of leaving the school altogether. Plus, maybe only a really hole in the corner school would take you without qualifications, and I'm sure Grizel wouldn't have fancied that. Isn't it mentioned in one of the books that you have to do loads of training to become a PT mistress?

#56: Author: jennifer, Location: Taiwan

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:19 am
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Madge doesn't seem to have any training - I don't think she even went to university - but her school starts out very small, and I think most of the rest of her staff has some sort of education, at least past the first few years.

My guess would be that if you could teach basic subjects - math, English subjects, French - you could probably get a post without training at a very small school, a new school, or a school with low standards. Things like a dedicated PT teacher would only be for larger, more established schools, and would probably require more credentials than "I was really good at gym at school".

#57: Author: Rosy-Jess, Location: Gloucestershire-London-Aberystwyth

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:07 am
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jennifer wrote:

Madge doesn't seem to have any training - I don't think she even went to university - but her school starts out very small, and I think most of the rest of her staff has some sort of education, at least past the first few years.

Which seems a bit odd, given that she's supposed to be all that at English!

#58: Author: Ronara, Location: London

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:24 am
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Kate wrote:

I do think Grizel got to a stage (around Carola) that she almost enjoyed being miserable and didn't want to do anything about it.

Or possibly was clinically depressed, in a time when that sort of thing simply wasn't treated with the seriousness it is now?

#59: Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:00 pm
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Part of Grizel's problems was the fact that she didn't come of age until she was twenty-one, so had to obey her father, as girls did in those days, and if she had managed to get hold of her father and talk him round to her point of view, Evil Irene would soon have put a stop to it. I've always imagined that it was Irene who persuaded Mr Cochrane to withhold Grizel's Money until she was thirty-five, precisely so Grizel could not train for a job that she really wanted, either in Maths or in PE. It would have given Irene a great deal of pleasure to thwart Grizel's ambitions, that's why she wouldn't agree to let her have the money to go to NZ to open a music shop.

#60: Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:44 pm
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Where did you get Irene as the second Mrs Cochrane's name? I didn't think we were ever told what it was.

#61: Author: Lottie, Location: Humphrey's Corner

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:58 pm
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LizB calls her Irene in her drabble in St. Agnes'.

#62: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:23 pm
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Jennie wrote:

Part of Grizel's problems was the fact that she didn't come of age until she was twenty-one, so had to obey her father, as girls did in those days, and if she had managed to get hold of her father and talk him round to her point of view, Evil Irene would soon have put a stop to it. I've always imagined that it was Irene who persuaded Mr Cochrane to withhold Grizel's Money until she was thirty-five, precisely so Grizel could not train for a job that she really wanted, either in Maths or in PE. It would have given Irene a great deal of pleasure to thwart Grizel's ambitions, that's why she wouldn't agree to let her have the money to go to NZ to open a music shop.

Yeah she really is evil, isn't she? Can anyone think of a more despicable character?

#63: Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:17 pm
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Maybe not *more* dispicable, but certainly *AS* dispicable, and that's Annis Lovell's aunt (or is it cousin?) who treats Annis so badly she runs away (Island).

Not as bad as either of them is Mrs Grantley, Ted's mother, who can't have been much of a mother if what Carty had to say to Joey was to be believed!

And then, of course, there's the Carricks - who treat Juliet pretty abominably in School At. Of course they have the decency to come to a sticky end!

Ray *is sure there are one or two more lurking*

#64: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:24 pm
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Yeah they're all pretty bad! I'm sure there must be some more too, but can't think of them just now.

Betty Wynne-Davies' guardian is pretty nasty, now I come to think of it, though. Really, CS paernts had no idea how to pick a decent guardian!

#65: Author: Catriona, Location: South Yorkshire

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:41 pm
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Hmmm, yes - several people seem to have picked Joey as a guardian for their children .......

These days, it would be quite acceptable for someone to have a career change at the age of 35 - but I realise things were quite different back in the 40s/50s.

#66: Author: Katherine, Location: London, UK

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:36 am
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I was reading Eustacia last night and it struck me that here we see Mrs Cochrane in a slightly better light - maybe.
She is suggesting to Eustacia's aunt that Eustacia be sent to the CS and she says that she is much improved/better (? don't have the book on me to check). She also offers to show Mrs Trevannion, the aunt, some of Grizel's letters to show her how happy they were. Does this suggest that Mrs Cochrane would have kept the letters, rather than Mr? Does this show some sort of affection or would it have just been the woman's job to file them? At the very least it must mean she read and took notice which would seem to be something of a miracle, and might mean she cared (a small amout).
Hmm, not the most robust of defences but it was something I hadn't really noticed before.

#67: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:04 pm
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I think this was probably just so someone could get Eustacia to the school. I suppose, though, you wouldn't throw your stepdaughter's letters away even if you couldn't care less about her. She would probably have worried that it would have looked bad.

#68: Author: JayB, Location: SE England

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:28 pm
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Maybe the letters were addressed to 'Dear Father and Stepmother', in which case Mrs couldn't get rid of them.

Jay B.

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