Election day thought!
The CBB -> Anything Else

#1: Election day thought! Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:04 am


Apart from the Anschluss/Second World War period, and the odd vague reference to the post-war situation in Austria, is there anywhere in the books where other major events are mentioned? e.g. the General Strike, the Abdication, the deaths of George V and George VI, the coronations, the Suez Crisis, etc? I know they didn't have radios etc in the school but even the staff never seem to say much about things like that. I know the books were meant for children, but even so. Just coming over all serious today!

Last edited by Alison H on Thu May 05, 2005 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

 


#2:  Author: SusanLocation: Carlisle PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:51 am


I have never seen any references to anything else. The only changes of note are singing 'God Save The King' in one book and 'God Save The Queen' in another.

 


#3:  Author: Joan the DwarfLocation: Er, where am I? PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:38 pm


There's mention of the Vienna riots in an early book, can't remember which. There's also the '68-style riots on the Platz in one of the last ones (which is nicely anachronistic, as by that point CS time was several years behind real time!).

 


#4:  Author: EilidhLocation: Bathgate, Scotland PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:20 pm


Joan the Dwarf wrote:
There's mention of the Vienna riots in an early book, can't remember which.


It's Exile. Bruno von Ahlen says, at the meeting for the school and sanatorium staff,

Quote:
My father was murdered in one of the riots in Wien five years ago. I am no Nazi. I will stay.

 


#5:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:32 pm


There are numerous references to 1930s and 1940s politics (this contains extracts from an article I wrote for the 2004 FOCS annual):

The first is in Exploits (p. 59 hb) “…Wolfram, her husband’s son, was coming home, and Wolfram had imbibed a great deal of the spirit of Young Germany, and [the Gräfin von Stift] was anxious that Thekla should not be infected.”

Exploits was published in 1933, so the Nazis have been in power for three years and Hitler, having just become Chancellor, is really making himself felt. In the aftermath of the Reichstag fire, anti-Communist feeling is spread by the Nazis, and it is likely this that the Gräfin fears.

The second is in New (p. 117 hb) ‘Manuel had been in Spain during the early part of the reign of terror, and had hair-raising tales to tell them. He had been got out of the country as speedily as possible and really knew very little at first hand… [An] aunt… had smuggled him out of Spain six weeks after the fighting began.’

This has to do with the Spanish Civil War. Although official fighting did not begin until July of 1936, after which time Hitler and Mussolini sent troops to aid Franco’s Nationalists, there were riots and strikes during the time from March to May of 1936, thus placing New during this time and therefore supporting the dates Carol Allen gave for Gillian.

Exile is the next big source of references, with Jem expressing his concerns about Schuschnigg (p. 26-27 GGB) ‘I don’t like Germany’s attitude, Madge. Schuschnigg is a fine fellow, but I doubt if he realises the stranglehold Nazi-ism has on the young Austrians. It bothers me a little.’

There is also mention of the so-called Night of the Long Knives “You surely haven’t forgotten the “purge” of ‘34? The murder of some of the very men who hoisted Hitler to the saddle?” (p. 94) where many early members of the Nazi party (Hitler did not found the party, he shaped it from one of hundreds of anti-Weimar parties to a major force) were killed because Hitler feared they (the Sturm Abteiling (storm troopers) or SA mainly) would overthrow him. Himmler formed the Schutzstaffel or SS in response to the threat posed by the SA.

References to Jews are also intriguing for their accuracy: the regime’s hatred of Jews (p. 55), the imprisonment of Count Louis von Rothschild (who was arrested by the Nazis two days after the Anschluss and involuntarily contributed greatly to the massive store of stolen artworks that the Nazis would amass over time; Rothschild was allowed to emigrate fourteen months after his arrest) (p. 58), Jews supplying ‘a good many’ prisoners for the Jews (p. 94), Herr Anserl’s comments about Jews that shows his awareness of the Nazi’s policies (p. 97), and of course the Jew-baiting of Herr Goldmann in Spärtz, which was to become a frequent occurrence in the years of Nazi rule (p. 100-101).

The other person mentioned in Exile as being put into a concentration camp is Dr Schuschnigg. Kurt von Schuschnigg, success of Engelbert Dolfuss, became Austrian chancellor in 1934. Being a staunch Catholic, Dolfuss was hated by Hitler and the Nazis, and it was Hitler’s supporters who murdered Dolfuss on the 25th of July, 1934. As a result of this, Schuschnigg began to work actively against the Nazis, even going so far as to give his support to a police raid on Nazi headquarters. By the middle of February, 1938, Hitler demanded that Schuschnigg allow the Nazis in Austria to act unrestrainedly and also to be represented in Parliament. If Schuschnigg failed to agree to this, Hitler threatened to invade Austria. Schuschnigg had been counting on aid from Italy and England in order to protect Austria from Germany, but internal politics made this support impossible. Despite this, Schuschnigg tried to keep his country independent, but gangs of Nazis, with the blessing of the Austrian interior minister Artur Seyss-Inquart, himself a Nazi, stormed the streets of major Austrian cities, including Vienna.

Although Schuschnigg tried to save the situation with the support of other parties within the Austrian parliament, it was too late. He attempted a plebiscite on the question of Austrian independence to placate Hitler, but the Nazis had already massed on the German-Austrian border and demanded that Schuschnigg be replaced by Seyss-Inquart. Austrian President, Wilhelm Miklas (whom Elinor Brent-Dyer calls Mildas), did not agree to this replacement, but Hitler threatened that 200,000 German troops would cross the border into Austria unless this occurred, and finally Schuschnigg himself resigned. Seyss-Inquart, appointed to the Chancellorship, at once asked Germany to send troops in to Austria to disarm the Socialist Party, and the Anschluss was complete.

Schuschnigg was arrested with his wife and four-year-old daughter. After spending seventeen months in prison, during which time he was tortured and forced to perform menial tasks, he was transferred first to Dachau concentration camp, near Berlin, and then to Sachsenhausen, outside Munich. He spent approximately four years there before being freed by the Allies on the fourth of May 1945 (Note that some sources state that he was taken first to Sachsenhausen and then to Dachau, and others that he was only at one camp or another. It seems impossible to tell which is accurate.).

The riots in Vienna is also an Exile reference (p. 67) and it was Bruno von Ahlen's father (Frieda's future husband) who was killed in them: "My father was murdered in one of the riots in Wien five years ago." There are two possible time-frames for this. Exile is set in 1938, so this could be riots in 1933, but these only took place on the night of March 9th to 10th in Germany. Alternatively, Exile being published in 1940, these could be riots in 1935 (we know how accurate EBD was about dates!) However these riots were also not in Vienna. They were in Munich (May 25) and in Poland (June 9). Most likely these exact riots are a figment of EBD's imagination.

I don't think EBD wanted to include a lot of post-war dates as that would tie the series down too much to a specific time. We all know what a disaster she made of the one date she did include, in Carola.

 


#6:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:41 pm


I forgot about Manuel and the Spanish Civil War reference!

A lot of the stuff about Austrian politics isn't in my paperback edition ... it's really annoying the way the books are cut.

 


#7:  Author: MiriamLocation: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:51 pm


At some point radios were introduced into the commen rooms. \in Jane, Miss Annersley tells \gaudenz to take the pluds off the radios and hand out of order notices on them (presumably in an attempt to stop Jack Lambert reattatching the plugs Rolling Eyes ) so that Jane oes not hear of her mothers accident until Miss Anneraley has time to amass more information. The staff room had a radio as dar back as Tirol.

In Kenya it is mentioned that Jo had the only radio capable of picking up english channels on the Platz, and mos of the girls might not havre paid too much attention to Swiss programming - and it might have been in the wrong language for the day. (Can you imagine the potential for confusin there? having to find a radio station giving you the news in the right language every day, and no news on English days, because you can't pick up any english channels?)

 


#8:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 12:09 am


I think it's likely the Seniors, at least, had a wireless as early as during the war. It would be much easier than the staff having to repeat everything. And the girls do listen to it at home, as Robin hears the 'weirdest news' about the Ark Royal in Exile.

 


#9:  Author: MiriamLocation: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 8:46 pm


Quote:
And the girls do listen to it at home, as Robin hears the 'weirdest news' about the Ark Royal in Exile.


And Polly knew what she was talking about, so she was obviously well enough informed about events while living at school.

I don't think that this was extended further down the school though. In Lavender, Miss Wilson comments that as a Junior, Lanvender would hear very little of the watr news - presumably just the main events. If what they heard was very controlled tyhen it doesn't seem likey that they would have had a radoi in the Commen Room.

 


#10:  Author: CatrinLocation: Wirral (holidays), Oxford (term) PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 8:54 pm


Quote:
I don't think EBD wanted to include a lot of post-war dates as that would tie the series down too much to a specific time. We all know what a disaster she made of the one date she did include, in Carola.


What was that? *hides ignorance under hat*
Cat

 


#11:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 9:08 pm


Catrin wrote:
Quote:
I don't think EBD wanted to include a lot of post-war dates as that would tie the series down too much to a specific time. We all know what a disaster she made of the one date she did include, in Carola.


What was that? *hides ignorance under hat*
Cat


In Carola Miss Annersley asks Carola for her date of birth - she gives it as March 10th 1936. Miss A then remarks that she is nearly 15. That would make the year - 1951. However the Triplets' age was detailed by Joey earlier in the book as 'nine last November' - as the Triplets birthday is the one definite date we know - 1939 - this does not compute!!!

In my copy of Carola I have crossed out 1936 and replaced it with 1934 - year should be 1949! Laughing

 


#12:  Author: CazxLocation: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 9:30 am


Joan the Dwarf wrote:
There's also the '68-style riots on the Platz in one of the last ones (which is nicely anachronistic, as by that point CS time was several years behind real time!).


What were these? And which book were they in?

 


#13:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 1:50 pm


Cazx wrote:
Joan the Dwarf wrote:
There's also the '68-style riots on the Platz in one of the last ones (which is nicely anachronistic, as by
that point CS time was several years behind real time!).


What were these? And which book were they in?


Prefects, possibly. The riots in there could be the '68-style riots or, as EBD suggests, the kidnapping of a dying girl.

 


#14:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:42 am


Lesley wrote:
In Carola Miss Annersley asks Carola for her date of birth - she gives it as March 10th 1936. Miss A then remarks that she is nearly 15. That would make the year - 1951. However the Triplets' age was detailed by Joey earlier in the book as 'nine last November' - as the Triplets birthday is the one definite date we know - 1939 - this does not compute!!!

In my copy of Carola I have crossed out 1936 and replaced it with 1934 - year should be 1949! Laughing


As Carola was first published in 1951 and EBD always seems to set her books in the year she writes them, she was actually correct here - for once. The fact that the second half of Exile is clearly set 1939 is neither here nor there - the book was written then, so it would be. Also, why take one date to be true (the Triplets birth in 1939) and disagree with another (Carola's specifically stated birth year of 1936)? What makes one valid and the other not?

I'm personally not a fan of a faux-dating which has books set both earlier and later than EBD actually wrote them, (e.g. School at set in 1930 - what's that about!?! Confused ) based on a couple of arbitrary dates in the middle of the series, especially when the few dates that are specfically stated don't agree with one another...

I know plenty of CBB folks favour such a dating, but I don't and it drives me nuts when people state these kind of dates as if they are 'fact' or the one and only way of looking at the time frame of the series.... In my mind (such as it is) Carola is set in Chalet-Year 23....

Sorry - that all sounds rather snappy (and as if it's directed at Lesley in particular) and it wasn't meant to. It's just one of my pet peeves.
Blame Monday morning!
Caroline

 


#15:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 1:15 pm


The only way for EBD to have avoided people trying to date the series would be for her to have avoided all outside mentions of the world, particularly WWII, and then the series would just have been another run-of-the-mill school story.

I have to say, Caroline, that the fill-in you have done and the other you are doing are easier to 'date' than mine, as yours involved little from the outside the world and only had to really fit into EBD's ideas of war, rationing and limitations (except for Jack Maynard's occupation, which is 'an 'eadache' in itself, I would imagine. Unfortunately I haven't given myself that luxury... Evil or Very Mad

 


#16:  Author: LesleyLocation: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:27 pm


Caroline, we must agree to differ. Smile

 


#17:  Author: CarolineLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:05 pm


KB wrote:
I have to say, Caroline, that the fill-in you have done and the other you are doing are easier to 'date' than mine, as yours involved little from the outside the world and only had to really fit into EBD's ideas of war, rationing and limitations (except for Jack Maynard's occupation, which is 'an 'eadache' in itself, I would imagine. Unfortunately I haven't given myself that luxury... Evil or Very Mad


You're right, of course - and although I didn't do that deliberately, I guess it's a symptom of the fact that it's the world of school that actually interests me, and not such much how the school fits into the world around it or how that world impinges on the school. I do like the fact that EBD brings glimpses of a different age and a different culture into her stories, but more from the point of view of adding depth and texture to her creation than anything.

Lesley wrote:
Caroline, we must agree to differ. Smile


Of course. That's one of things that makes the CS so enduring and endlessly additive to me - that there are as many interpretations of the 'truth' (as in EBD's actual intentions) as there are readers or even readings. And since we can't ask her what she really meant for us to do, my interpretation is as valid and real to me as yours is to you. I can completely understand why people would want to date the series, but since I can't reconcile *all* the dates to *my own* satisfaction, I choose not to do so.

I think I was in a bad mood yesterday - which I shouldn't be at all, because I finally sent 'Juliet' to The GGB Editor on Friday - and she says she is almost ready for it... Which means (a) KB is a genius and 'Peace' has moved on to the next stage, and (b) Ruth and I get to start work on 'Juliet' properly some day soon...

Can't wait.

Caroline.

 


#18:  Author: LizBLocation: Oxon, England PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:13 pm


Mexican Wave Yay! Caroline that's exciting news!

Liz

 


#19:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:52 pm


Quote:
KB is a genius and Peace has moved on to the next stage


Aw, shucks, aren't you nice!

Okay, here's the latest, folks (I had mentioned it in the Melbourne Gather section, but I'm sure not everyone reads that thread)

I have rewritten Peace to within an inch of its little life and then it was sent to A&C. The result is that they (quite correctly) would like more changes, fortunately most of which are shifting chapters around and adding linking sentences.

I had hoped the book might be out in time for the VE-Day anniversary, but you've probably noticed that that did not happen. I really don't want to even guess at a date, because I will probably be wrong.

Here's what I can tell you:

1) It has a cover picture and a colour frontispiece, both of which I simply adore.

2) It has a long Foreword and a very long Afterword (at this stage, more than 8,500 words combined, but will probably be longer).

3) It is longer than Headmistress and is almost certain to remain longer (the actual text is, as of this moment, a little shorter, but when added to the Fore- and Afterword, it is longer) so you are getting good value for money.

4) No chapter has not been massively changed since the first draft. Up until yesterday, the first sentence was basically the same (slightly shorter, Kathryn!), but now even that is going to change.

*sigh* And you wondered why it was taking so long?

 


#20:  Author: PollyLocation: Essex PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:59 pm


Huggles for you KB! I can't wait to read it . I was wondering how far along the line it had got.

Fingers crossed that you don't have to do too much more.

Very Happy

 




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