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| EBD's languages http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5404 |
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| Author: | Sunglass [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | EBD's languages |
Inspired by the thread on recruiting trilingual teachers, I wondered what other people had made, especially as child readers, of EBD's use of untranslated French (and the odd bit of German) in the CS books? Did you find it mysterious and exotic or offputting when you first read the books? What about now? Or, if you are a French speaker, do you find the fairly glaring mistakes made by even the native speakers - like Mademoiselle telling Joey in School Atthat she needs to follow 'est-ce que' with the subjunctive - take away from your enjoyment? Or increase it, for that matter? I confess to having been somewhat baffled by the French and German when I was ten, even things like the names of meals and rooms and mountains and girls I had not the faintest idea how to pronounce. I now rather enjoy EBD having the chutzpah to write in French the utterances of supposedly fluent speakers, and getting it wrong very blithely! |
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| Author: | MJKB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
My French is not up to recognising the mistakes, wish it was because they must be pretty funny, like the notices you sometimes get in hotels abroad. Actually I like the fact that the names of the meals are in German and some of the rooms also. It's quite educational. |
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| Author: | Cat C [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I think I vaguely skipped over the French and German (assuming that if it was important, a translation would be provided) -and never had a faintest clue how to pronounce all the Austrian place-names either... These days I can understand the French, but I've forgotten enough that the mistakes don't bother me one way or the other, although of course there is an irony in EBD's comments about true-born Gaulles tearing their hair out on French days, and the 'gibberish' spoken on German days. |
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| Author: | JayB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I rather liked the bits of French and German. I first read the books before I'd done any French at school (never did do German), so of course I had no idea that it wasn't always accurate. There wasn't so much of it than one couldn't work out the meaning from the context, and I did pick up quite a few German words from reading EBD. I think the use of French and German adds to the 'differentness' of the books. The use of German names for meals, for example, is a continual reminder that we're not in the UK. Now, when I think about it, I see all the reasons why a trilingual school probably wouldn't work in the way EBD envisaged. But when I re-read the books, I just accept it all as part of the world EBD created. |
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| Author: | Alison H [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I used to think it was really exciting learning all these bits of German from the CS books (everyone knew bits of French so that was no big deal) ... although when it came to choosing a second foreign language at school I opted for Spanish (and now wish I'd opted for Russian). I thought it was really cool that the CS used "foreign" words for meals and various other things. It was ages before I realised that "Spashery" was not in fact the German word for cloakroom ... |
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| Author: | RroseSelavy [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
It made me ask my parents for a "First thousand words in German" book! (Do they still do that series? Themed pages of cartoon-y scenarios to help kids learn basic vocabulary). |
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| Author: | JS [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
It could be confusing. I thought it odd, for example, that Frieda seemed to want her grandmother to die (she kept going on about 'die Grossmutter') before I recognised it as the German definite article. I've always found it generally quite helpful, however. It was good starting German and knowing some words. The books also made me want to learn/use other languages, which is quite good for us (generally insular about that sort of thing) Brits. All in all, I'm with Sunglass on her last sentence! |
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| Author: | MJKB [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
Wow!! Is it not? What is it then? |
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| Author: | Sunglass [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
Alison H wrote: It was ages before I realised that "Splashery" was not in fact the German word for cloakroom ... That's brilliant! The child you was right in her instincts, though - there should have been some German word like 'Splashenraum'! and JS's Quote: I thought it odd, for example, that Frieda seemed to want her grandmother to die (she kept going on about 'die Grossmutter') before I recognised it as the German definite article. is even better. It would have been a much funnier/more traumatic misunderstanding than Grizel's holy/hot water! I shall now always thinki of Frieda as harbouring murderous desires towards Granny. Dear Frieda - her name meaning 'peace' is so inappropriate in this context... |
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| Author: | Fatima [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
JS wrote: It could be confusing. I thought it odd, for example, that Frieda seemed to want her grandmother to die (she kept going on about 'die Grossmutter') before I recognised it as the German definite article.  I'm another one who doesn't speak anything well enough to notice the mistakes; I enjoyed the languages as a child (though it never inspired me to learn any myself!). It just added to the whole exciting atmosphere of being abroad. |
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| Author: | Catrin [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I once tried to learn French using the CS books. I drafted a list of words I understood (including Wee, meaning yes) and words I didn't (including oui, presumably pronounced oo-ee). My mum laughed at me so much that I gave up the idea completely. |
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| Author: | JackieP [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I very proudly told my teacher at the end of my first German lesson that I already knew some German because of some books I read... Not sure what she thought I would have learned from the CS series - but it did turn out that she was also a fan, and kindly consented to lend me her two Hardbacks...  JackieP |
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| Author: | Pado [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I felt oh-so-sophisticated as a child reading books with foreign words and phrases casually tossed in. And then I would repeat them phonetically to my friends, who were equally impressed, since they had no clue how badly I was mispronouncing everything. At one point, I tried to teach myself Russian, just like Joey, in case a crazed Belsornian ever showed up in small town America. I saw it as a natural extension of preparing a fall-out shelter in the basement in case of atomic disaster. I was Prepared. |
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| Author: | mohini [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I had read some CS Books as a child but they came to my life much later.By that time I had started to learn German a bit and was proud of the fact that I could recognize the sentences as German. But it was different at times from what we were taught. French i could not and still do not understand beyond the fact that spelling is very long and half the letters are not pronounced.Thus I find it difficult and feel a bit cheated as I cannot understand why the teachers shouted on reading excercises submitted by the girls or why the girls felt irritated when the seniors corrected them. |
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| Author: | jennifer [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I read a lot of fantasy and science ficiton even as a kid, so I approached the French and German snippets the same way that I would have bit of Klingon or other made up languages inserted in the text. I also had a habit of seeing unpronouncable names as a picture, rather than phonetically. |
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| Author: | Lisa [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
jennifer wrote: I also had a habit of seeing unpronouncable names as a picture, rather than phonetically. That's really interesting - I thought I was the only one that did that! I've always thought that it's because I 'see' the word in my head, rather than try to 'hear' it that I'm a good speller. (sounds very big headed, sorry!  )Like some others on this thread, I loved learning the other languages and made up exercise books and projects based on the words I discovered in the CS. I speak French to GCSE standard and still don't notice anything wrong with EBD's French! But to this day, my only words of German are from EBD  Mind you, I found them useful when in Switzerland!
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| Author: | Sarah_G-G [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I tend to "see" words like that too, and read a lot of fantasy, which is fine up until the point I try to discuss a book with someone and discover I'm not actually sure how I pronounce those names and words, let alone how they're supposed to be said! Back on topis though, I loved the occasional use of other languages when I was a child and specifically tried to learn the French and German in the books. I still maintain that half the reason I ended up studying French and German (and Russian, actually) at uni is a result of sub-concscious programming via the CS books! I thought being trilingual would be the most amazing thing ever and desperately wanted my school to introduce the same idea Nowadays if I'm concentrating I can see the mistakes but because I've read them so often, it's just not something I think about. I know there are mistakes there but the sentences and words she uses are so familiar to me in that context that I tend not to think twice about it. I have to admit, my one gripe is with Joey's ability to speak languages fluently, apparently, after being in a country for two weeks or begging a few phrases off of someone! Learning by constant practise I understand, but we never see Joey actually learning Spanish/ Italian/ Russian/ Belsornian/ Romany/ whatever other random language strikes her fancy, so having spent a very long time studying languages, it annoys me that Joey can apparently reach my standard in the space of about 2 weeks!  I'm incredibly jealous!
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| Author: | Lindsay [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I always quite liked seeing the untranslated French/German in the books when I first read them, but then I always loved 'foreign' words (hence the fact that I eventually did a language degree - in French & German (& Swedish, but that one didn't really come into the CS much!) and am now studying translation). Nowadays, I can see the mistakes, but despite being a bit of a perfectionist it doesn't really annoy me that much because, like all the other EBD-isms, it's all part of the books for me. I suppose I would have liked to have seen a few characters in the later books having a go at Schweizer Deutsch (Swiss German) though - I've never been to Switzerland, but I know that dialect is quite different from the standard German they presumably learned at school. Does anyone know if any CS books have been translated into other languages? I'd be interested to know what happened to the 'foreign' phrases in translation... |
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| Author: | Lisa [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
Ooh, yes, that would be interesting! So - could someone show me an example of EBD's French and then say what it should be? I've been doing some random dipping into the books and I still haven't spotted any mistakes
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| Author: | Sunglass [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
Lisa wrote: So - could someone show me an example of EBD's French and then say what it should be? I've been doing some random dipping into the books and I still haven't spotted any mistakes Well, some of them are probably meant to be mistakes, as the girls aren't fluent. But I came up with some made by native or fluent speakers either somewhere further up this thread or maybe in the 'trilingual staff' thread. One I can think of is Mademoiselle LePattre in School At correcting Joey's mistakes in an exercise (it's when Joey deliberately seeks her out, in order to see the result of the prank of making her piano keys slippery on Grizel), and telling her that when you begin a sentence with 'est-ce que' then you must use the subjunctive after it, (when you only use an ordinary indicative, in correct French). (EBD is confusing 'est-ce que' with prepositions that take the subjunctive, like 'bien que' 'avant que', 'quoique' etc.) 'Est-ce qu'il revient demain?' (ordinary present indicative) rather than 'Je dois partir avant qui'il revienne' (subjunctive). And lots of Miss Linton's French on Clem's first day in Three Go is wrong - just wrong syntax, and things like getting vous/tu wrong. Also, more amusingly, the phrase the girls all apparently know perfectly from the staff telling them - meaning 'I don't understand' - is wrong! (Though I suppose it's just possible Miss Linton's French is very rusty...) Or when supposedly fluent Len says (and I can't actually remember which book, one of the Swiss ones) to someone Miss Annersley wants to see in her study: 'Madame desire ta presence dans l'etudier.' The beginning is a very stilted, literal translation from English 'Madame desires your presence in - ' and 'l'etudier' is a made-up word from the verb 'etudier' (to study), when the French for 'study' (as in Miss Annersley's room) is 'bureau'. I found that one a bit weird, as it's only a matter of looking the word up in the dictionary! There are lots of others, but I can't recall them offhand. Which has just made me wonder whether the girls addressed the mistresses according to the appropriate titles for the language of the day - did Miss Annersley become Fraulein Annserlsey/'Mademoiselle Annserlsey' (though what Len says suggests, a bit confusingly, that she's referred to as 'Madame' on French days)? |
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| Author: | Lisa [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
Thanks, sunglass! *nods head with air of new-found wisdom* I know of course about when the pupils use their made-up / bad French but hadn't noticed the other mistakes - probably because I thought 'Madame desire ta presence dans l'etudier.' sounded like a perfectly good translation to me *Off to investigate the other thread* |
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| Author: | kaitlin101 [ Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I didn;t know what the words meant (well some of them) so i just read them how they were. 
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| Author: | francesn [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: EBD's languages |
I loved it and I tend to gloss over the mistakes. It did get me interested in languages as a practical application and I now work with a bilingual school so I can see the theories in practice! IMO EBDs invented way was better....you end up truly trilingual rather than triglossic. |
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