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EBD and North American literature
http://www.the-cbb.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4742
Author:  Alison H [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  EBD and North American literature
Having finally got round to reading the Elsie books (apologies to anyone who has read my endless drivel about them on LJ :lol: ), I wondered if anyone else had any thoughts about there being a strong American influence on the Chalet School Tyrol books:

1. Some of the scenes in the Tyrol books are very similar to scenes in the Elsie books - Joey's skating accident for one (and Maureen Donovan's skating accident is similar to Amy March's in Little Women), and the Peri/cave thing at one of the sales for another.
2. There are strong similiarities between teenage Joey and Jo March and between young Robin and Beth March.
3. Stacie Benson's accident and personality change are straight out of What Katy Did :lol: .
4. The "obedience to parents" theme, whilst presented as being a Continental thing, is very reminiscent of the Calvinist-linked emphasis on obedience to parents in both the Elsie series and the Little House series.

It doesn't seem as obvious in the later books, though - maybe because EBD just moved on to new themes, or maybe because of her religious conversion (a lot of late 19th century GO-type books seem to've had a strong Protestant thread running through them)?

Apologies for long waffle: I am bored at work! Just wondered what other people thought about it.
Author:  ibarhis [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've not read the Elsie books so can't comment on those parallels but I can certainly see the parallels with Katy and LMA. The similarities between Jo/Joey and Beth/Robin are clear as well.

It's a very interesting idea... I'm wondering what other influences there might be? Who else might EBD have read as a child?
Author:  Róisín [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that's extremely interesting.

I wonder is there anything in EBD's biography that might have given her a connection with American GO lit? Such as an aunt figure who sent them to her as gifts etc.
Author:  Jennie [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
As EBD was deeply religious, perhaps she was given books such as the 'Elsie' Books as Sunday School prizes.
Author:  Jenefer [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
EBD also read the Anne books
They were available here in the 20s - my mother and/or her sisters won some as school prizes
Author:  ibarhis [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jenefer wrote:
EBD also read the Anne books
They were available here in the 20s - my mother and/or her sisters won some as school prizes


Green hair dye, if I recall correctly?
Author:  Chelsea [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
ibarhis wrote:
Jenefer wrote:
EBD also read the Anne books
They were available here in the 20s - my mother and/or her sisters won some as school prizes


Green hair dye, if I recall correctly?


There was indeed.

Although Anne put it on on purpose. It was supposed to turn her hair a raven black - but turned it green instead.
Author:  macyrose [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Characters named Felix, Felicity and Cecily (cousins) appear in Lucy Maud Montgomery's Story Girl books as well as in EBD's Maynard family.
Author:  jenah [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jenefer wrote:
EBD also read the Anne books
They were available here in the 20s - my mother and/or her sisters won some as school prizes


Yes, but they aren't American literature. (Says the proud Canadian).

:wink:
Author:  Anjali [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:42 am ]
Post subject: 
I bet Mrs Rachel Lynde would be properly horrified to hear them mistaken for American literature :wink:

Edited to correct a typo
Author:  Theresa [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Since Canada is located within North America and, therefore, 'the Americas', they fit into the literal interpretation of 'American literature', if not the popular usage. North American literature, I guess?
Author:  jennifer [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Theresa wrote:
Since Canada is located within North America and, therefore, 'the Americas', they fit into the literal interpretation of 'American literature', if not the popular usage. North American literature, I guess?


Except that Canadians almost never use the word "American" to mean "North American". I've also noticed that Canadian will almost always say"The US" or "The States", never "America" to refer to the country.

From a cultural perspective, think of it as telling a New Zealander "New Zealand? That's just the same as Australia, right?" :lol:
Author:  Lolly [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject: 
jennifer wrote:

From a cultural perspective, think of it as telling a New Zealander "New Zealand? That's just the same as Australia, right?" :lol:


well....no! Those are two separate countries!!! Canada IS part of the Americas.....as are Brazil, Peru, etc etc. New Zealand is NOT part of Australia!
Author:  Róisín [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Canada is as much a part of North America as Ireland is a part of 'The British Isles' - ie a geographical term (not political, not cultural...) that tends to only be used by the more powerful country and which tends to annoy the other country very very much.
Author:  Lolly [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Róisín wrote:
ie a geographical term
.

Well, yes, that was my point. Canada is in North America. Australia is not in New Zealand. I can see what you are trying to say....I find it extremely irritating to be referred to as 'British' rather than 'English' or worse still European. But there it is...
Author:  ibarhis [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:24 am ]
Post subject: 
I may have precipitated this particular 'discussion' (US/Canada nomenclature) by asking what other books EBD might have read as a child...

Sorry!
Author:  Róisín [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Lolly wrote:
Róisín wrote:
ie a geographical term
.

Well, yes, that was my point. Canada is in North America. Australia is not in New Zealand. I can see what you are trying to say....I find it extremely irritating to be referred to as 'British' rather than 'English' or worse still European. But there it is...


No, by geographical I meant 'shares the same sort of rock formations or flora and fauna'. I think in terms of literature, the cultural/political identification is more appropriate to use.

Edit: sorry if I sound abrupt or rude, having a bad morning here (sigh)
Author:  Lolly [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't agree with you at all Roisin...but I don't think that was abrupt OR rude :lol:
Author:  Kate [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Róisín - and I must add I do NOT like Ireland being referred to as part of 'the British Isles'. Incidentally, although that may be a geographical correct term in the UK, it is not used at all in Ireland. It is not used in a large number of Irish published maps (e.g. Folens) and never in the Irish media. The Irish government does not use it and discourages its use. It might be geographical for some, for many here it's politically charged.

Anyway, besides that - in my head, 'North American' would include Canada whereas 'American' would not - on the basis that 'American' is in common colloquial usage to refer to the United States.

Maybe it's not like calling New Zealand part of Australia (as *technically* NZ is its own continent and not part of the continent of Australia) but it would be similar to calling the Ukraine part of Russia instead of part of Europe. Just because the terms 'North America' and 'America' are more similar than 'Europe' and 'Russia' doesn't mean that they're interchangeable.
Author:  ibarhis [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Kate wrote:
I must add I do NOT like Ireland being referred to as part of 'the British Isles'.


For what it's worth I would only apply British Isles to that part of Ireland commonly known as Northern Ireland! As opposed to Eire... That is, I'm sure equally contentious...
Author:  Jennie [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Please may we get back on topic?

Such wrangling becomes tedious.
Author:  Róisín [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's not entirely off-topic, really. EBD had many influences in her life and the one this thread is interested in is American/Canadian literature. One side of that discussion is how homogenous American/Canadian literature is, and by extension (because of similarities in historic roots, in language, in social customs), how homogenous American/Canadian/Australian/British literature is. I italicized that last 'British' because if there is a case to be made that those types of literature have more in common than they have in difference, then was it an 'external' literature that EBD was being influenced by at all?

I hope that made sense!

Within that, terms are important. It's good that they get discussed, because it highlights how different people understand a. different nationalities b. different cultures and (therefore) c. different literatures.
Author:  Kate [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been reading the Anne of Green Gables series recently - I only ever read the first book before and I'm interested in how much more adult they are in some ways. They go into romance much more deeply. I wonder if they were written for a much older audience or whether it is a cultural thing. Or perhaps both?
Author:  Jenefer [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Apologies to all Canadians

I read the Anne books in my early teens when I read a mixture of children's and adult books. I feel the books are written for this age group. Yes there are romances but they start after the young people leave school. It seems quite normal to me and I think L M Mongomery handles romance much better than EBD
Author:  Alison H [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've changed the title to "North American" literature - sorry, I didn't think of the Anne books when I posted originally. At least no-one in the CS books has quite as many sets of twins as the woman Anne lived with before she went to live with Matthew and Marilla!
Author:  Kathy_S [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
What I find interesting is that EBD seems to have internalized Katy, Anne, Jo March, et al. so thoroughly, yet when trying to portray "American" or "Canadian" language, comes up with the more colorful (and not exactly common) "pie-faced, rubber-necked four-flusher" ("American") or "fit as the Irishman's flea" ("Canadian"). It's as though the traditional GO literature, which, although a tad dated, comes close to normal language, is too "us" to be used to portray "them."

On the topic of four-flushers, though, I have finally found a source that isn't British or American-with-British-characters-imitating-American. I recently managed to plow through a few of Dad's 1930s phoneticized-dialect-heavy cowboy paperbacks, and discovered an astonishing density of low-down four-flush bad guys. Ah now reckon EBD had herself a c'lekshun of sich littercher.... She clearly hankered after one of them masterful cowboys, but had to make do with doctors. (Still haven't found Evvy's whole phrase except in psmith, though.)
Author:  Lesley [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is anyone else here now picturing Kathy as a female John Wayne???? :wink:
Author:  Luisa [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Surely not! Far too solid.....
wanders off to find cowboy equivalents of CS mistresses, much more fun than the ironing.....
Author:  ibarhis [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Lesley wrote:
Is anyone else here now picturing Kathy as a female John Wayne???? :wink:


Audie Murphy?
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alison H wrote:
I've changed the title to "North American" literature - sorry, I didn't think of the Anne books when I posted originally. At least no-one in the CS books has quite as many sets of twins as the woman Anne lived with before she went to live with Matthew and Marilla!


I learnt relatively recently that my maternal great-grandfather was a twin - and he had twin siblings AND two "singletons"! Very Chalet School of him, as was the fact that, when his wife died, he expected his sister (not, I think, his twin, but his unmarried sister) to drop everything to look after his four sons.

Hmmm, perhaps EBD did reflect real life just a tad?
Author:  Lesley [ Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mrs Redboots wrote:
Alison H wrote:
I've changed the title to "North American" literature - sorry, I didn't think of the Anne books when I posted originally. At least no-one in the CS books has quite as many sets of twins as the woman Anne lived with before she went to live with Matthew and Marilla!


I learnt relatively recently that my maternal great-grandfather was a twin - and he had twin siblings AND two "singletons"! Very Chalet School of him, as was the fact that, when his wife died, he expected his sister (not, I think, his twin, but his unmarried sister) to drop everything to look after his four sons.

Hmmm, perhaps EBD did reflect real life just a tad?


Did she?
Author:  Theresa [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Haha aww I just thought I was being funny (and while if I was asked to come up for a term for the literature referenced here, I would come up with North American, I also don't know anyone 'round these here parts who would exclude literature from being American on the grounds of being Canadian, or Mexican or Argentinian, if you can kind of see where that sentence is going). Didn't mean to send this off on a tangent. Sorry about that, Canada!

I, too, have always wondered where EBD got her North American slang, and why she was so keen on using all that crazy slang when she had obviously held characters from the region very close to her heart as a young girl and must have had an idea that they didn't actually all talk like cowboys. I find it so hard to imagine her reading both the classics of North American children's literature and the classics of my grade-three-educated dirt poor grandfather's collection (now in large print, with more violent illustrations!).
Author:  JayB [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I, too, have always wondered where EBD got her North American slang, and why she was so keen on using all that crazy slang when she had obviously held characters from the region very close to her heart as a young girl and must have had an idea that they didn't actually all talk like cowboys.


Madge does tell Joey that there's no reason to assume that Evadne will use a lot of slang just because she's American - but then of course Evadne does exactly that! Maybe, as a writer, EBD just enjoyed playing with unusual combinations of words?

EBD possibly had access to books she wouldn't otherwise have seen in the schools and training colleges she attended/taught at. Didn't she teach boys at one time? Who knows what she might have confiscated from them and taken home to read at her leisure! DLS is said to have read a lot of cheap fiction for 'research' at one point and LMA/Jo March did the same at one stage of their careers.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lesley wrote:
Mrs Redboots wrote:
he expected his sister (not, I think, his twin, but his unmarried sister) to drop everything to look after his four sons.

Hmmm, perhaps EBD did reflect real life just a tad?


Did she?

Well, look at all the unmarried aunties who look after their poor orphaned nephews/nieces (Jacynth, Lorna) or those where Mum has died (Monica).....
Author:  Lesley [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
No I meant did your great-grandfather's sister keep house for him.
Author:  Kathy_S [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
JayB wrote:
Quote:
I, too, have always wondered where EBD got her North American slang, and why she was so keen on using all that crazy slang when she had obviously held characters from the region very close to her heart as a young girl and must have had an idea that they didn't actually all talk like cowboys.


Madge does tell Joey that there's no reason to assume that Evadne will use a lot of slang just because she's American - but then of course Evadne does exactly that! Maybe, as a writer, EBD just enjoyed playing with unusual combinations of words?

EBD possibly had access to books she wouldn't otherwise have seen in the schools and training colleges she attended/taught at. Didn't she teach boys at one time? Who knows what she might have confiscated from them and taken home to read at her leisure! DLS is said to have read a lot of cheap fiction for 'research' at one point and LMA/Jo March did the same at one stage of their careers.

It could be a combination of all of the above. I can easily imagine the "research" argument, or learning from confiscated literature. :lol:

Also, having different characters with different "accents" does allow the reader to keep a fairly long conversation straight with little need for he said/she said.
Author:  Becky-MA student [ Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I lived in the states for a year and explaining the difference between the UK, Great Britain and various constituent parts was...difficult! My roomie was also convinced that Scottish people only spoke Gaelic.

I think CS definitely shares some values with Lucy Maud Montgomery books, although I think the characters in the Anne books rebel more against those values- for example the character (gah, name escapes me) in Rilla of Ingleside who disagrees with the first world war and doesn't go to church.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lesley wrote:
No I meant did your great-grandfather's sister keep house for him.

Yes, indeed - and brought up the four sons, including the newborn whose arrival was the cause of his mother's death. I have a feeling their father may even have returned to India, if only briefly!
Author:  Lesley [ Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well lucky for you that she did - if only to ensure your grandfather survived! :lol:

The thing that rankles there is the expects - I'm sure that if something dreadful were to happen to one of my sister-in-laws and I was the only one available then I would step in - but it's the fact that it used to be expected - rather than offered.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lesley wrote:
Well lucky for you that she did - if only to ensure your grandfather survived! :lol:

The thing that rankles there is the expects - I'm sure that if something dreadful were to happen to one of my sister-in-laws and I was the only one available then I would step in - but it's the fact that it used to be expected - rather than offered.

Indeed - I find it rather rankles, too. Aunt Edith had a good career of her own, running some kind of nursing agency with her sister, and had to give that all up....
Author:  Jennie [ Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, she ought to have refused to give up her own life, or at least asked for a decent salary.
Author:  Mrs Redboots [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
As I said, I think that it was considered totally normal in that day and age - and we are talking well over 100 years ago, in the 1890s - even though it feels appalling to us today!

And many EBD heroines were looked after by aunts, who seem to have happily given up at least a few years of their lives to do so - think of Jacynth and Monica, and one or two others.....
Author:  ibarhis [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think you would find that for most women in 1890 it was a 'career choice' in an age where most respectable women who were not of the servant class considered that marriage was the natural path and that looking after parents or family were the natural alternatives.

Even at the highest levels of society, Princess Beatrice had an appalling time before she married as Queen Victoria expected her to be there for her until she (the Queen) died!
Author:  Alison H [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've just read a biography of Princess Beatrice - as you say, she was expected to be a companion to her mother. It went on even after her marriage. And her niece Princess Victoria acted as a companion to Queen Alexandra in the next generation.

People like Mollie Bettany's widowed sister who came to be housekeeper at The Quadrant and Elfie Woodward's aunt(/cousin?) who came to live with the Woodwards after Elfie's stepfather died actually volunteered for "the job" when there were daughters (Peggy and Elfie) willing to do it instead, so maybe for them it was a welcome alternative to (possibly) coping on their own without much money.
Author:  JayB [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
In Dimsie Goes to School (pub. 1920, I think), we have the headmistress, Miss Darrell, giving up her post in order to go and look after an elderly aunt. It's a plot device of course to introduce a new head and set up conflict because of the changes she introduces, but it seems very cruel to poor Miss Darrell. She isn't homeless or in financial difficulties, and she's deprived of the chance to continue earning to save for her retirement.

That reminds me of the DLS novel Unnatural Death in which there's mention of a character giving up a nursing career to look after an elderly great aunt. SPOILER, but no major plot points revealed: I think it's Parker who says Mary Whittaker was entitled to expect to inherit the aunt's money, since she'd given up her career to look after her. END SPOILER
Author:  Lulie [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
My grandmother (b.1903) expected that my mum, as the youngest of seven, would stay at home to look after her in her old age.

She was so peeved when my mum married at the age of 22 that she got rid of most of mum's childhood belongings while mum was on her honeymoon. Although my mum has completely forgiven her I still feel cross as Grandma included several EBD/EJO books in her clearout, which would be mine if mum still had them :evil:

I have told Grandma so, even though she died before I was born. She is buried in a tiny cemetery right up in the Pennines and Mum and my uncle took me there when I was about 12 to see the family graves. They howled with laughter when I firmly stomped on the grave and said "That's for throwing out those books!"

I've never been allowed to forget it :roll: :lol:
Author:  Lesley [ Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Perfectly natural and normal reaction Lulie - I'm sure we'd all have done the same! :lol:
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