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#1: Daisy Author: Joan the DwarfLocation: Er, where am I? PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:22 pm
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Reading "Shaking off the chains" and always having been annoyed at Daisy having to give up being a doctor, I was pretty stunned to come across this in the 'Newsletters' (December 1967):
Quote:
Daisy Venables is not only married, but helps with the children's wards at the Sanatorium

Is there every any mention of this in the books?

#2:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:23 am
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Good for Daisy - she keeps telling me she wants to go back to work so I knew she would eventually Laughing Laughing !

It's not mentioned in any of my copies, but the latest hb I've got is Reunion and Daisy was still in England at that point, so maybe it was cut out of the pbs?

#3:  Author: Joan the DwarfLocation: Er, where am I? PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:30 am
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Alison H wrote:
Good for Daisy - she keeps telling me she wants to go back to work so I knew she would eventually Laughing Laughing !

Laughing
But she also seems to be whispering to you how much she hates the Platz as well... maybe she didn't feel she could tell EBD that Cool

#4: Re: Daisy Author: MiaLocation: London PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:36 am
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Quote:
Daisy Venables is not only married, but helps with the children's wards at the Sanatorium


I used this little snippet in one of my drabbles when I wrote on here. AFAIK it's not mentioned outside of the newsletters. The word 'helps' grates from a modern perspective, doesn't it?

#5:  Author: catherineLocation: Newcastle upon Tyne PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:21 pm
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I might be wrong but I vaguely remember some comment about Laurie coming out to join the San ... try looking at Jane, at the part when Jane and JosÚ visit Joey.

#6:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:01 pm
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I'm just re-reading Redheads, and she has just arrived then, with the three small children, living up at Ste-CÚcÚlie. No mention (as yet) of her working, but if I find she is, I'll post!

#7:  Author: macyroseLocation: Great White North (Canada) PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:09 pm
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I haven't read the newsletters in a while but there are some things mentioned in them that are not shown or mentioned in the books (Daisy "helping out" at the San is likely one of them), and if I remember correctly there are also things that contradict things that are in the books.

#8:  Author: catherineLocation: Newcastle upon Tyne PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:38 am
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This is the bit I meant:

Quote:
"I suppose Auntie Daisy put the boys down first," JosÚ said. "Are they here for long, Auntie?"
"Well, yes; you might say so. Oh, not in this house. That's only for the next week or two. Then the Rosomon family will be going to their new abode. Know the chalet that Frau Steines had at Ste Cecilie?"
JosÚ nodded. "Do you mean they're coming here to live? Is Uncle Laurie joining the San?"
"He is, at long last. He's taking Dr. Tyndall's place."


Daisy doesn't really feature in the later books so her helping out at the San probably didn't warrant a mention.

#9:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:15 pm
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Veering off topic here, but I am irritated by the way everyone is addressed as Auntie and Uncle, however remote the connection. Joey was Elisaveta's friend (and Jose's godmother?), so it's reasonable that Jose should address her as 'Aunt', but why Daisy and Laurie? I don't think Daisy is old enough to be her aunt, and she can't have seen much of her since the war years in Armishire when Jose was tiny and Daisy herself was a schoolgirl.

#10:  Author: MaryRLocation: Cheshire PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:19 pm
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JayB wrote:
Veering off topic here, but I am irritated by the way everyone is addressed as Auntie and Uncle, however remote the connection. Joey was Elisaveta's friend (and Jose's godmother?), so it's reasonable that Jose should address her as 'Aunt', but why Daisy and Laurie? I don't think Daisy is old enough to be her aunt, and she can't have seen much of her since the war years in Armishire when Jose was tiny and Daisy herself was a schoolgirl.

The trouble was, JayB, in those days we couldn't call any adult by their Chrsitian name, even when we were close, as it was considered extremely bad manners - so I suppose Auntie and Uncle was a way of getting round that.

#11:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:28 pm
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I know - I was there 'in those days' Smile But we didn't call every adult 'Aunt' and 'Uncle'. My mother didn't like it for people who weren't related. Friends' parents and other random adults were 'Mr' and 'Mrs'.

Why couldn't Jose say 'Dr Rosomon'? Especially for Laurie, who she couldn't have known at all.

#12:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:37 pm
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When I was little (I was born in 1975) I used to call parents' friends/friends' parents/parents' cousins etc "Auntie" or "Uncle" because calling them Mr This or Mrs That seemed too formal and calling them by their first names would have seemed rude. By the time I was in my mid-teens I'd pretty much stopped doing it, though.

#13:  Author: KarryLocation: Stoke on Trent PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:27 pm
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Me too! It was almost a right of passage, a sign of being "grown-up" when I was allowed to call my parents' friends Jock and Grace instead of Aunt and Uncle! Things are far more relaxed these days.

#14:  Author: Dreaming MarianneLocation: Second star to the right PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:35 pm
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Yes, but I always refer to my friend as Auntie X or Uncle Y in front of my toddler instead of X or Y!

#15:  Author: vicki_theterrorLocation: Derby PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:18 pm
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i have to say a lot of my indian patients refer to me as auntie when I'm treating their children. sorry I don't want to offend anyone.

vicki

#16:  Author: MaeveLocation: Romania PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:10 pm
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Among Hungarians (they are a minority here in Romania) anyone over the age of 40 is almost automatically referred to as auntie and uncle, but it's a very affectionate title here and (after the first shock of being the older generation!), I have grown quite fond of it.

#17:  Author: AnaLocation: Manchester (term-time), Cumbria (hols) PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:39 pm
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I always referred to other adults who I knew relatively well (ie, friends of my parents, or parents of my friends) as Auntie and Uncle too, and I was born in 1986. I think I'd even go so far as to say it was and still is the norm.

But, I have to say that now I'm in Manchester, I always seem to be introduced to friends' children as just "first name". Maybe it's a rural/urban thing...

#18:  Author: SquirrelLocation: St-Andrews or Dunfermline PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:01 pm
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My parents friends tended to be 'auntie' or 'unkle' - and my parents still try it on with me for some of them now.

#19:  Author: dorianLocation: Dublin PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:00 pm
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When I was a child in the 1970s, it felt a little bit daring to be calling my friend's parents "Marion" and "Bernard", even though they'd asked me to. All my other friends' parents were "Mr" or "Mrs" soandso.

On the other hand, it was perfectly natural to me as a child to address my parents' old college friends as "Felicity" or "Ian" or "Janie" - I'd always known them by their first names.

But I never addressed anyone as "Auntie" or "Uncle" who wasn't actually an aunt or uncle, or married to an aunt or uncle.

And on a third hand, as a young adult in the 1990s with younger (teenaged) friends, said friends' parents' were often flabbergasted when I addressed them as "Mr" and "Mrs" soandso and was generally polite and respectful.

It's all a bit of a minefield, and has been for some time.

#20:  Author: Kathy_SLocation: midwestern US PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:32 am
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I agree that the norm was to call grown-ups by title and surname, to the extent that one of our generation expressed amusement that Dad's first name on the funeral program wasn't Mister. However, Aunt/Uncle or Mr./Miss plus first name were applied to those whom my parents regularly called by first name in our presence.

It's not entirely a thing of the past, either, as I still know people who switch to using title & surname as soon as their children appear on the scene. It's always a little disconcerting, especially when I'm the subject of the identity switch.

#21:  Author: TaraLocation: Malvern, Worcestershire PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:16 am
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When I was a child in Wales, the general 'auntie-ing' used to drive me mad, but when I had children of my own I realised how awkward it is when Mr etc is too formal, but forenames feel slightly rude. My children did have brevet aunts and uncles, but only people who were our close friends. Otherwise we Mr-ed. Lots of people don't bother now, of course, but I don't really like being called by my forename by a young child - perhaps it's being a teacher! And keeping on using 'auntie' etc as a grown up is weird.

#22:  Author: SquirrelLocation: St-Andrews or Dunfermline PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:56 am
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To be fair - I don't know that I always use peoples names in conversation. Rather than saying 'hello x...' I'm far more likely to just say 'hi' and go right on with the conversation.

The only differences are if I'm using e-mail, or possibly the phone. Mind you, that brings you to the minefield if you happen to be leading a crowd of girls and want to get one of them, or when you have to introduce them, because being out of the habit of using their name, it is far easier to forget!

#23:  Author: AliceLocation: London, England PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:28 am
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Squirrel wrote:
To be fair - I don't know that I always use peoples names in conversation. Rather than saying 'hello x...' I'm far more likely to just say 'hi' and go right on with the conversation.


I don't tend to either. I think this is partly because I have always felt uncomfortable calling people Mr/Mrs/Miss... and so there would be lots of people who I wasn't sure what to call.

I always called all my parent's friends and my friend's parents by their first names, though I would avoid calling my friend's parents anything at all.

I never even called my aunties and uncles on my dad's side anything but their first names. I did call my mum's sister Auntie Jane but that stopped sometime in my teens, though I will still refer toi her as auntie sometimes.

#24:  Author: WoofterLocation: Location? What's a location? PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:42 am
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Mia mentioned it earlier on just wondering what AFAIK stands for?

#25:  Author: LottieLocation: Humphrey's Corner PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:53 am
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Woofter wrote:
Mia mentioned it earlier on just wondering what AFAIK stands for?

AFAIK = as far as I know

See this thread by KB. Smile

#26:  Author: WoofterLocation: Location? What's a location? PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:58 am
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Ah thank you! Sorry I didn't see that before!

#27:  Author: Mrs RedbootsLocation: London, UK PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:55 pm
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There was only one friend of my grandmother's who insisted on being addressed as "Aunt" - everyone else was firmly "Mr" or "Mrs" whoever. Including, I may say, people who worked for my family, who we were required to address with the utmost respect - if we were to use their first names, it was at their instigation, not ours!

My daughter, conversely, grew up addressing most people by their first names, and my very much younger niece and nephew even call us by our first names. Which I don't mind, and have told my other nieces and nephews to do the same.

#28:  Author: JoSLocation: South Africa PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:32 pm
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Growing up in the 70's I called my parents' friends auntie and uncle and probably only stopped doing so in my late teens. Even today, I sometimes inadvertantly revert to "auntie". My children, however, call most of my friends by their first names. They also call both my and my SLOC's siblings by their first names, even though I point out on a regular basis that aunt and uncle would be more appropriate. I'm afraid that this is one that I will have to give up on.

#29:  Author: KBLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:40 am
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The really interesting part of the Uncle and Aunt phenomenon is how very socially unacceptable it would have been (and still is) to do such a thing in Central Europe. To call any German or Austrian by anything other than Herr, Frau or Doktor is unbelievably improper! I can imagine that people such as Gottfried Mensch must have been terribly shocked to have been called by their first name, even by their colleagues at the San. If you want to show familiarity, it is by the use of the informal 'du' instead of 'Sie' for 'you'. Of course, this doesn't come over very well in English.

Going a bit OT, when my parents came over to visit my while I was on Youth Exchange in Germany in 1997, my father addressed one of my host fathers as 'Michael' not 'Herr Hissbach'. I was mortified, but the look on my host dad's face was absolutely priceless and I must say he took it very well!

#30:  Author: ChairLocation: Rochester, Kent PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:06 am
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I used to call some of my parents' friends, Aunty and Uncle.

I always added the 'Aunts' and 'Uncles' for my parents' siblings and I still do it now out of habit. They have said I can drop the A and U but it is hard to remember. Also, when I got older but still had younger cousins who called my parents A and U, I thought it was better to call their parents A and U. I hope that made sense.

None of my close friends have children yet, so I don't know what they will call me. I don't mind just being 'Clare'. I would love it though if my future nieces and nephews occasionally call me 'Aunty Clare' as nobody has done that before!

#31:  Author: JayBLocation: SE England PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:19 pm
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KB wrote:
The really interesting part of the Uncle and Aunt phenomenon is how very socially unacceptable it would have been (and still is) to do such a thing in Central Europe.

So to go back to my original point, wouldn't Jose, who was of Central European/Balkan origin, be more likely to use the formal 'Dr Rosomon' for Laurie, whatever she might call Daisy? I don't see how she can ever have met Laurie.

Come to that, how likely was it that Joey would say 'Onkel Riese' and 'Onkel Florian'?

Quote:
If you want to show familiarity, it is by the use of the informal 'du' instead of 'Sie' for 'you'. Of course, this doesn't come over very well in English.

Does EBD have any of the Austrian characters use 'thee' and 'thou' for 'du' in the Tyrolean books?

#32:  Author: Alison HLocation: Manchester PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:04 pm
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Yes - the Austrian domestic staff use "thee"/"thou" all the way through the series when speaking to children or to younger members of staff, and there are other examples too - e.g. in Jo of, when Madge and Joey are staying with the Mensches, Frau Mensch tells Joey to "Go to thy dear sister" after breakfast.

#33:  Author: Kathy_SLocation: midwestern US PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:04 pm
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I still find it quite confusing that, on one hand, we had EBD and especially Jo March's beloved Mr. Bhaer representing thee and thou as intimate, and on the other hand had them removed from liturgical language because they were too formal and 'built a wall between the worshiper and God.' Confused

(Yes, I know they originally made it into religious use merely as contemporary transation of the 2nd person singular, but that knowledge doesn't affect how I "feel" the language.)

As for German, the biggest problem I had over there was that everyone seemed to expect dusprechen. We'd emphasized Sie in class to an extent that I couldn't remember the verb forms. Embarassed

#34:  Author: SquirrelLocation: St-Andrews or Dunfermline PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:33 pm
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I do think that 'thee' and 'thou' are very personal type words, but I think part of the issue for the church is that they are not used in modern parlance, and it is possible that for people who are not used to the rituals of the church it would be one step too far. Kind of like the thought "They don't even use the word 'you' like normal people do..."

It's more that it creates a barrier between people who understand why that kind of language has been used, and those who don't - I guess in the end it is better to use standard language, and get the intimacy in other ways. After all, how close I feel to someone is not effected by whether I call them thou or you.


Last edited by Squirrel on Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

#35:  Author: MiriamLocation: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:39 pm
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I think that use of the terms uncle and aunt depends a lot on what you hear other people saying. I adress my Great Aunts and ~Uncles as Auntie X or uncle Y because this is what my mother was taught to do, and I grew up hearing her say it. My aunts and uncles were her siblings, and since she never referred to them as Aunt or Uncle, I didn't either. THe fact thaty she did that is a general sign of lack of formality now.

Jose never really had a Middle european upbringing. She came to England during the war when she was a few months old, and I think she grew up there. Both her parents had very strong English influences in their parentage, and once they were forced out of their homelands would probably have adopted that background. Her Grandfather went and earned his living on a cattle ranch in Australia, which would also have helped to get right away from the formal court atmosphere in the family.

Elisaveta probably got into the habit of referring to Daisy as Aunie Daisy when they were living near Jo during the war. (Jose would have been to young to take any notice, but from the boys it would have been apprpriate.) Once she had been established as Auntie Daisy it would have been self-perpetuating, and it would be equally natural to refer to her husband (even without having met him) as Uncle.

THe triplets at one point are siad to have started referring to Daisy as 'Autie Daisy' without having been prompted. It would just have been a natural title.

#36:  Author: dorianLocation: Dublin PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:12 am
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Kathy_S wrote:
As for German, the biggest problem I had over there was that everyone seemed to expect dusprechen. We'd emphasized Sie in class to an extent that I couldn't remember the verb forms. Embarassed

I remember when I was doing work experience in Berlin, I used to freak people of my own age out by using "Sie" automatically until they told me not to.

I also got very pissed off by my boss's boss always using "Du" to me - and invariably calling me "Fraulein...er...um"; I didn't mind him forgetting my name, but I was very annoyed by being called "Fraulein" rather than "Frau". It did seem rather demeaning in the workplace.

Still, whatever language one happens to be using, I do feel it's better to err on the side of formality.

#37:  Author: KirstyLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:41 am
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I've never called my parent's friends auntie & uncle, it was only ever their first names from very early-on. And their children refer to my parents by their first name also.
One the other side, my 4-yo nephew will refer to my sister & her husband as auntie and uncle, but me by my first name without the auntie more often than not because he hears my parents speak to me without the title. It greatly amuses family friends when they hear it Laughing

#38:  Author: DawnLocation: Leeds, West Yorks PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:26 pm
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I think I was about 14 when I stopped calling my parents friends "aunt" and "uncle" - although Jo & Pete and Neil & Irene were named without their titles long before that - guess who I got on best with (and still do Laughing )

My great aunts and uncles were always just called Auntie and Uncle and I was quite shocked when I realised that they were "Great" - somehow it seemed much older than Granny/Nanny

Our children have always called our friends by their first names. We've never been Aunt Dawn and Uncle Andy either to our niece and nephews - but our children picked up that one of Andy's sisters and his brother prefer to have the Aunt/Uncle title and the other doesn't and have used appropriately. Personally I'd just prefer them to use the name - but then I hate using titles. Just don't get me started on being called Mrs Evil or Very Mad

#39:  Author: SquirrelLocation: St-Andrews or Dunfermline PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:42 pm
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I have an aunt who I apparently gave a childs-version-of-your-name to, and both my brother and I called her by that until he decided it was too babyish for him. Then the Aunt in question, realising that I would just stick with it, must have decided that enough was enough and that was that. I was at least 18 at the time, but, yes...

#40:  Author: RosieLocation: Land of Three-Quarters Sky PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:29 pm
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My sister and I used to address our eldery neighbour as 'Auntie Joan'. I don't know quite when we dropped the Auntie but I do recall not being quite sure whether or not I was still meant to be using it!

I never quite know how to address the parents of my Rainbow Guides - or worse, how to refer to them when talking to the whole unit. I do rather have a habit of saying 'Mrs- (Rainbow's name)'s mummy', which the kids seem to like!! We use our first names as leaders though, and I've only once had a parent question it. She didn't seem to mind; I think she just wanted to check her very new Rainbow daughter wasn't going to get in trouble for being rude.



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