The CBB :: View topic - Conformity in the Chalet School

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#1: Conformity in the Chalet School Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:06 pm
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I'm just wondering (partially brought on by Róisín's Perfect Chaletian thread) what people's opinions are on the Chalet School as an enforcer of conformity. Do the girls go in as individuals and come out as Chaletian clones? Or are there real individuals in the school? There's quite a bit of "and then she became a Real Chalet Girl..." at the end of books - does this "Real Chalet Girl" become a stereotype?

I'm thinking of people like Eustacia and Grizel in this context - are they punished due to their lack of conformity? And what of the girls that are more obviously "different" - Nina or Margia (the geniuses), Tom or Jack (the tomboys), Deira or Biddy (the wild Irish girls) or the other foreign girls... are they allowed be different or are they made conform also? I'm also thinking of Joey's advice to Bride over Diana - the importance of the community over the individual.

I am now shamelessly picking your brains for my thesis, as this is basically a plan for one chapter anyway. Smile

I just want to see if anyone has startlingly different opinions from my own so I can maybe look at things from a different angle.

Just editing to add a clarifying disclaimer: A lot of critics dismiss the school story on the basis that the characters are stereotypes and any "interesting" characters are amalgamated into the stereotype once they're reformed (eg Eustacia).These are not necessarily (and aren't!) my opinions! They are opinions of some of the critics of the school story that I'm looking at.

Last edited by Kate on Tue May 16, 2006 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

#2: Author: CJ, Location: Leicester

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:38 pm
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I hadn't really thought about this before but the chalet school do encourage conformitity, clearly shown though how, Grizel, Elizabeth Arnett and Verity are all encouraged .and in stacie Bensons and Jane Carews cases bullied into conforming and those who won't conform are deemed as misfits and trouble makers- Thelka, Betty, Joyce Linton, Phil Craven. Instead of turning out individuals as the Chalet school claims it wants to- its turning out carbon copies of Joey, Mary-lou etc ( help poor CS universe) and characters that would not cope outside of the CS context- hence we don't really see how they fare as adults. I don't know if this will help your thesis- but if you look up the definitions of conformity in any sociology or psychology book, you'll find it describes what blatantly happens in the CS series- sorry i havn't got any of my text books or CS BOOKS handy so can't really give examples

#3: Author: Michelle, Location: Near London

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:14 pm
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I think that the CS does enforce conformity, but there are exceptions. Very gifted girls, such as Nina, are allowed to go their own way to some extent, simply because they're very gifted. And I would say Mary-Lou is an exception too. She doesn't conform - she gets away with saying things no-one else can. And she doesn't marry a doctor!

Anyone who's a bit more ordinary has to conform - or they end up being either expelled or injured.

Michelle

#4: Author: Loryat,

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:52 pm
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I don't think it's so much conformism as reformism. The girls who 'change' all have problems; Cornelia is rebellious and dishonourable, Grizel is reckless and can be unkind, etc. The Chalet School helps them to become better people but they retain their distinct personalities, they're not all clones.

So the girls are expected to conform to an ideal, but not surrender their own personalities (unless this happens in the later books which I haven't read many of). On that score they're pretty much the same as the only other school stories I've read, by Enid Blyton. The girls all become 'St Clare's girls' or 'Malory Towers girls' or 'make Whyteleaf School proud of them'.

#5: Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:56 pm
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To some extent any organisation encourages conformity, and certainly in say your early teens a lot of people are keen to be like everyone else, and people who are "different" do quite often get picked on at school.

From the School's point of view, I can sort of see why they make a fuss about e.g. Joan Baker wearing dresses that are more adult in style than the ones anyone else wears, or Nina Rutherford wanting to spend ages practising and not much time on other lessons, but they do go a bit OTT - e.g. OOAO telling Naomi Elton that she's talking rubbish when she says she doesn't have any religious beliefs.

People seemed to be allowed to be "different" if there's some specific "reason" for it, e.g. they're a musical genius or they're "just Mary-Lou" but not usually otherwise. Poor Joan Baker ends up being Billy No Mates all through school! Jack Lambert's probably the main one who's allowed to be "different" without there being an excuse for it.

There seem to be a lot more "individuals" in the early books - Margia is a musical genius but still part of a big group of friends (more so than Jacynth is), and Evadne and Cornelia have quite strong characters, and even people like Simone aren't really CS clones like a lot of the later pupils.

#6: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:00 pm
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Not sure I agree, really. Obviously, there is a certain amount of conformity in any school, especially a boarding school - rules to be obeyed, traditional customs handed down from one generation of girls to another - but 'conformity' in the sense that you are talking about it, seems to suggest the CS / EBD turns out a bunch of clones.

Now, there maybe be (OK, is!) some stereotyping going on (the 'wild' Irish girl, the cautious, red haired Scot etc.), but I really don't think we end up with clones. Every generation of Chalet girls consists of plenty of individuals, with notable character traits of their own. In fact, particularly in the early books, I would have said that characterisation is one of EBD's strengths - most of her girls have well-defined and consistently-maintained characters. Girls like Tom or Grizel or Stacie and Jane - they get to carry on being different and unique, they just learn how to live with, and be accepting / understanding of others whilst they are about it.

Just because they learn to obey the school rules, uphold the school ethos of looking out for others and become accepted into the school community, doesn't make them clones. Oh, and injury / recovery as a metaphor / mechanism for character reformation is a well known motif of this kind of story (the school of pain). I've always thought EBD is rather restrained in the way she uses it, compared to some writers.

I'm not sure quite where CJ's comment is coming from:

Quote:

Instead of turning out individuals as the Chalet school claims it wants to- its turning out carbon copies of Joey, Mary-lou etc ( help poor CS universe) and characters that would not cope outside of the CS context- hence we don't really see how they fare as adults

We don't follow the majority of the girls as adults, becuase these are school stories. And I can't think of any Joey / Mary-Lou carbon copies - other than Len, perhaps.

Caroline.

#7: Author: Catrin, Location: Wirral (holidays), Oxford (term)

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:05 pm
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Alison H wrote:

e.g. OOAO telling Naomi Elton that she's talking rubbish when she says she doesn't have any religious beliefs.

I wonder if this particular case is more a feature of the time the books were written than the school pushing religion. If the CS was around now I don't think they would be allowed compulsory prayers and so on without advertising itself as a faith school, but that (I think) was more normal for most schools back then

*hopes more knowledgeable people are on their way*

On the topic again, the sixth-formers do become more and more alike through the series - hardworking, a sense of humor, strong discipline. I'm thinking here of Bride's set compared to when Rosamund & co are prefects - there's not much to choose between the two. There's much more character contrast in the earlier part of the series. But, this could just be a consequence of EBD running out of ideas again.

#8: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:05 pm
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Caroline wrote:

Not sure I agree, really. Obviously, there is a certain amount of conformity in any school, especially a boarding school - rules to be obeyed, traditional customs handed down from one generation of girls to another - but 'conformity' in the sense that you are talking about it, seems to suggest the CS / EBD turns out a bunch of clones.

Oh gosh, I'm not saying they *do*, definitely not! My thesis is taking a defensive stance on the issue - it's just that a lot of the critiques of school stories in general suggests that's what the books do, encourage girls to conform to this Chalet-esque ideal (or the ideal of whatever school the story is about).

My own personal view is that that is a very surface reading and in reality, the books do promote individuality and offer girls alternatives rather than the traditional "stay at home, get married" pattern.

#9: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:11 pm
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Ah - OK, I've misunderstood you a little, then. Sorry! Maybe I should have said 'conformity in the sense that some of the responses to your post have taken it'...

Anyway, apologies.
Caroline.

#10: Author: Mrs Redboots, Location: London, UK

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:25 pm
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Well, real-life schools used to want to turn out a bunch of clones! At least, the place that I went to did - I read through all my school reports at a sitting, once. Big Mistake - the impression I was left with was that I was a big disaster as I couldn't/wouldn't conform and "drew attention to myself" the whole time..... like it was wrong to need/want attention? I am reminded of some of the books by Noel Streatfield, where the anti-heroine always makes a Great Big Noisy Fuss on every possible and impossible occasion, whereas the rather dull conformist child wants to go to school "and nobody even notices that I've joined it!"

#11: Author: francesn, Location: away with the faeries

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:34 pm
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It does and it doesn't.

It encourages girls to conform in the sense that they are expected to abide by rules and be decent people but there are still plenty of people with character flaws still not really "cured" by the time they leave the school.

Plus there's no real perfect Chaletian - sure there's Joey but as we constantly see Joey's not by any means perfect. M-L still has a tendency to be bossy and overly informal. Even in the sixth there are girls who don't think about the consequences of their actions - Peggy and Dickie for example - or just look at St Mildreds in CS and the Oberland. Even in that they recognise that they need to shake down and become one school but that the old CS girls mustn't impose their ways on the others. It's the bit with the simile about the jam.....Chapter 4 in Oberland.

And if you've got the HB of Feud (p143) Wanda is talking about how Joey sent the greengage jame because she's just like that, and the only other girl who did that was M-L.

Quote:

"Oh but Aunt Joey is always like that," Wanda told her. "Tant Marie and Tant Wanda have told me that she was always likem that over big things and little ones, too. The only other girl to do it was Mary-Lou Trelawney, who's left us now."

So...yes but no.

#12: Author: Róisín,

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:12 pm
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Kate, I think you are asking a number of separate questions in your original post:
1. Does the Chalet School act as an enforcer of conformity?
2. What does 'becoming a Real Chalet School Girl mean?
3. Are there stereotypes? ('the geniuses, the tomboys, the wild Irish girls, the foreign girls')
I hope I've interpreted you right there, if I haven't, poke me!

1. There are two ways to look at this - EBD herself in the first case, and the school authorities in the second. In both cases I would say no. You could take the case of Grizel and say that although EBD felt that she couldn't control the character, she did eventually slamdunk her with a doctor and a baby son, but I think this would be ignoring the complicated personality that Grizel maintains even while married. As an author, EBD was interested in keeping her books alive and fresh for her reader - so she actively sought new and different characters. See toward the end of the books, where each new girl brought in is in some way unique. They don't lose this uniqueness either, in some kind of 'reformation'. Jane retains her whirlwindiness; Adrienne her solemnity; Erica her clumsiness; Evelyn still doesn't approve of many Chalet School ways by the end of her book, though she hoes in anyway.
Neither do the mistresses or Joey act as enforcers of conformity. In some cases, you could say that they might be encouraging it, but certainly never enforcing it. See the hands-off approach that Miss. A. especially embraces when it comes to teenage squabbles. She always leaves them to work things out for themselves. They are encouraged to go for whatever career they like, but this is always tempered with reason:

Quote:

“What you want may be far beyond what you are likely to get,” Miss Moore said seriously. “For instance, some of you may want to become famous artists or writers or musicians. That will depend on whether you have the requisite gifts for such things. Again, it might not be possible for you to obtain the necessary training. What you want can depend on a number of things.”
“Then what about what we hope?” asked Emilie Gabrielli, a Swiss girl who was the daughter of a well-known Advokat or barrister. “Must that also depend on circumstances?”
“Not necessarily. Wanting and wishing frequently lead one into extremes. Hope depends very much on what you yourselves are. Think it out!”

Maybe the constant application of this kind of sensible approach might lead the reader to think that some kind of conformity is being enforced, but I wouldn't think so.

2. I know we were fairly jokey about it in the Perfect Chaletian thread, especially when it was acknowledged that the girl who had that many attributes would be some kind of monster. That's the most important point. The fact that EBD did provide the reader with so many attributes that for any one person to have them all would create a monster, speaks volumes. There are many many ways that one can be a good Chaletian. No one girl in the books has all the right qualities. Each good Chaletian is good in her own way.

3. Whether or not the books have stereotypes has been discussed elsewhere (though I don't know if it got archived). I think the conclusion we reached was something like 'yes in some cases, no in others, but the stereotyping was never harmful'.

ETA: Hmm, I'm not 100% happy with all I just said - I want to think about it more. But I do think you are proposing a number of different issues in your question. Smile

#13: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:22 am
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Again, we've got to retain some sort of historical perspective (says she, who was born without a history gene!). I do feel that, within the confines of her time and genre, EBD actually used a highly interrogative approach which stopped the charcaters being swamped by the ideology of the text. She does make apparent use of the stereotypes common in the genre(Irish girl, Mam'selle, princess etc), but subverts that by creating very strong and individual characters (Biddy, Mlle Lepattre, Mlle de Lachennais, Elisaveta) whose future lives are often anything but stereotypic.

She also, during a very long writing life, allows questioning of elements which are taken utterly for granted initially eg Naomi Elton/ Ruey Richardson and religion. I know Ruey doesn't need much persuasion to take her faith more seriously and, yes, Naomi is brought into the fold, but I think that's because EBD's faith was so strong that she couldn't bear to leave a character in what, for her, was a wasteland. At least Naomi is allowed a different perspective. And even Pam Slater, questioning, horror of horrors, the whole ethos of the school, and ending up perfectly happy and fulfilled elsewhere.

I could write a thesis, but won't!

#14: Author: Kate, Location: Ireland

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:17 pm
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Tara wrote:

I could write a thesis, but won't!

It's not necessary because I am! Very Happy

My conclusions are pretty much what yours seem to be - I love that people agree with me, I feel justified in my views now.

#15: Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:43 am
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I think if the characters had been too stereotypical, the books wouldn't have the appeal for adults that they have. If you think about the drabbles (which are being written for adult reading, unlike the books), we tend to base them mainly on characters. We may exaggerate the characteristics - either kindly or otherwise - but the main premise of most drabbles explore is "How would xxx act in this situation?"

Just to throw another little thought into the melting pot. When EBD was writing these books, she wanted them published to be read by schoolgirls. I often wonder what age group she was aiming at. A lot of us read them from about age 8 and then dropped them in our early teens - which is the age she was generally writing about. We then came back to them in our adult life from a different perspective.

To get back OT, I don't think the girls are being made to conform any more than any community has to insist on in order to survive and reach it's goals.

#16: Author: Tara, Location: Malvern, Worcestershire

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:06 am
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This is a bit OT too, but I think the question of whom she was writing for is fascinating. Because of the importance of adults in the books, the reader (who, as patmac says, is often younger than the girls in the text) is given access to information kept from the girls because of their tender years, which is a bit weird. Pregnancies are the obvious example, but you have things like Evadne unburdening herself to Jo when she's pregnant, 'cos she married late and was afraid she wouldn't be able to have children. I came to the conclusion that EBD was fundamentally doing it for herself, and it's her own absorption in her fictive world that makes it so addictive for the rest of us.

#17: Author: Mel, Location: UP NORTH

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:18 pm
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I like Tara's theory and I also think that when EBD was writing they would be read by girls in the teens. Today, children generally like to read about people older than themselves, or simply these books are more appealing and more challenging.

#18: Author: JackieP, Location: Kingston upon Hull

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:45 pm
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Don't really have anything to say - but thought I'd post the title of a Thesis my old German teacher (the one who let me borrow her CS HBs when I was first discovering the series!) did on school stories and gender identity, in case it could help with yours.

From Bosom Friends to Anti-Soppists - an examination of the English girls' school story in its social and educational context, and its relationship with gender identity in the years 1900 - 1950 - Rosemary Waugh - Hull University.

Hope that'll help.

JackieP (well, I'm married now!)

#19: Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
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patmac wrote:

Just to throw another little thought into the melting pot. When EBD was writing these books, she wanted them published to be read by schoolgirls. I often wonder what age group she was aiming at. A lot of us read them from about age 8 and then dropped them in our early teens - which is the age she was generally writing about. We then came back to them in our adult life from a different perspective.

I think I remember reading somewhere that girls school story fiction (EBD / EJO / DFB, for instance) and story papers (Girl's Own Paper / Annual etc) from the first half of the last century was typically aimed at what we would term the young adult group (~14 to early 20s). That is, girls who had left school but had not yet married.

Caroline.

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