Madge
The CBB -> Book Discussions
#1: Madge Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:25 am

That sweet woman, Lady Russell or brisk and snappy? Please discuss Madge here!

 

#2:  Author: Josie, Location: London PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:17 pm

OK, I'll give this one a go. Won't be massively insightful as am crap at analysis, but here goes! Madge is the character that drives me nuts in the books more than any other. Or at least, the way EBD develops her character does. I really like her at the beginning - this feisty, brave woman who makes the decision to move to a foreign country and start a school. You've got to admire her. She's confident and handles very trying situations brilliantly. And I love the way she handles Joey, who must have been a nightmare to look after as they 'responsible adult'. In fact, her relationship with Joey is the one thing that I do contnue to like about her right the way through. Then she marries Jem and starts forgetting how to cope with everything without his help. In the Tirol and Guernsey years this doesn't bother me so much as it doesn't seem so nioticeable, but once they move to the Welsh borders it drives me mad. I know everyone talks about Joey's attachment to the school as unatural, but I find Madge's every increasing lack of atttachment just as unatural. The school was her baby, and the way she seems to just lose interest in most of the things to do with it just doesn't ring true either Nor does her willingness to just roll over and pander to Jem's whims and orders (so to speak! Shocked - just realised how that sounds!) She loses every ounce of her feistyness and does just become this 'sweet woman'. I know she's a woman of her times, but it still bugs me immensely. But I think the thing that drives me mad the most is when she drags poor Sybil to Australia because she wants her girls with her, thereby destroying Sybil's career dreams. This was a woman who, like I said, moved to a new country and opened a school with no experience and built it up into a success. She had her own pretty impressive career, albeit only 'til she got married. I can't understand why she scuppered her daughters chances of having the same for entirely selfish reasons. OK, rant over. Wink

 

#3:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:02 pm

I like Madge. (OK, so you've actually got to go a very long way before you find a CS character I don't like!) I particularly like her as she's drawn in the early books because it is all cast so against the times. There's Dick heming and hawing about what to do with Madge and Joey and Madge just tells him "This is what I'm going to do" (got to love that!) and she goes and she does it and she is successful with it, and even after her marriage, she's still very involved with the school one way or another, right up until Exile. With the war (and the various moves), she does become less involved, but that's mostly a practicle thing (the Round House is said to be quite far from Plas Howell and unlike Plas Gwyn, it's not on the direct bus route) and when it counts (in dealing with Miss Bubb), Madge is still very much Madame. It's really only when she goes to Canada that she drifts away from the school and at that point, while I won't say she turns into Sweet Lady Russell, she certainly stops being Madame. And I have to agree with Josie, her treatment of both Sybs and Josette is pretty awful. She costs Josette her year at St Mildred's and her chance to go to university as well as costing Sybs her chance at going to art college. Although (she adds, doing an admirable fence sitting routine!) in fairness to Madge, Australia is such a very long way from everything and everyone she knows and given Jem is out there to attend various medical conferences, the prospect of that must have been very lonely so I can sort of see why she might want her two daughters to go with her. (Still doesn't make it fair, of course.) Ray *Smile*

 

#4:  Author: Kathye, Location: Laleham PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 4:17 pm

I'd agree with the comments above, I love Madge in the early books and feel that she was at the time EBD's fav adult, then as Joey get s older I feel that EBD transfers her to the posiion that Madge once held. I think it is in Island "don't quote me cause I'm half sure I'm wrong" that Joey refers to Madge as having become that sweet women Lady Russell, and I remember reading this and thinking yippee is she going to become the character she once was, but no..... she slips back to being a badly drawn foil for Jem. I always thought, even as a child that it was a shame that she wasnt a very good parent to her own children, when she seemed a better parent to her wards. I thought that EBD used her as a mirror for Joey's handling of her children and how not to do it, with the spoiling of Sybil and Josette's accident. She seemed to lose her spine entirely, which is a shame as she had a lot of gumption to go and start the school. We see the beginning of this decline in the very beginning of Madge and Jem's relationship though when she immediately leans on him from the moment they meet whenever there is a calamity, and on re-reading it as an adult, I always felt that she had gotten to the point where she didn't want to have to be the one making all the hard decisions anymore and wanted Jem to do it all for her (I know women like that now, that defer all responsibility of money, making decisions to there husbands), but that is probably my reading off the "between the lines" hints, rather than any actual text. Feel free to disagree entirely as I said it is just the impression I have gotten over the years

 

#5:  Author: Ellie, Location: Lincolnshire PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:57 pm

Actually Kathye, I totally agree. Yes, Madge did have the courage to start a new venture in a foreign country, and the energy and talent to make a success of it, but at the same time, she did make a habit of asking the men in the locality for advise, usually the pupil's parents, and on at least one occasion, when the Carricks abandoned Juliet, I think, she specifically lamented the fact that she didn't have a man who she could ask for advice. I think she was only too happy allow Jem to be responsible for making decisions after their marriage. She started the school as it was a practical way of earning a living and educating Joey, as well as benefiting Joey's health, but I doubt that she saw it as a long term career.

 

#6:  Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:57 pm

I do think Kathye has got it quite right and Ellie's comments on not seeing it as a long term career is something I hadn't thought of. I wonder if (thinking of Madge as 'real'), she was overtaken by the success. She envisaged it as just her and Mlle and a few visiting teachers and before she knew where she was she had a largish school on her hands with staffing problems (the disastrous matron), she acquired Robin and then Juliet and her vision of the cosy little 'Dames School' turned into a business. Her handling of her own children was terrible - don't get me started on her blaming Sybil for Josette's accident! Not only was she a 'full time' mother by then but she had live in help. As for dragging Sybil and Josette off to Australia - it was too much. I do think EBD wrote Jem as what was seen at the time as a successful medical man - authoritarian, godlike (did give it a small 'g'), know it all. So I suppose she had to match Madge to that image.

 

#7:  Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:11 am

I hadn't thought of Madge getting tired and overwhelmed, but I suppose it makes sense. First she has what she thinks will be a small school, that takes off into a middling-largish one, and, if I remember correctly, she has no teacher's training or administrative training whatsoever. She does, however, do a very good job with it, and has Mme Lapattre to help her with the school itself. Then she gets married, and physically removed from the school itself. She visits a fair bit at first, and even teaches a bit still, but then she gets pregnant/has a newborn, which restricts her movement. Then, within a few years, she gets saddled with Juliet, Robin, Peggy, Rix, Bride, Jackie, Sybil, Daisy, Primula, Stacie Benson (for a year), entertaining random groups of students in half term, plus the social responsibilities of being a The Wife of the Head of the Sanatorium (I'm guessing there would be a fair amount of entertaining/gracious hostessing with that). I wonder what the Bettanys would have done if Madge were still teaching and living at the school? I'm guessing they'd have had to keep the kids with them until age 6 or so, or send them to relatives in England. I like her in the early books. She's independent, and doing something very gutsy. She sort of fades later on. "That Sweet Woman, Lady Russell" sums it up nicely. The primary focus of her life seems to be doing things to back up her husband's career. Her treatment of Sybil and Josette in Gay borders on neglect. They never explain why an 8 year old is left alone in a kitchen, kettle boiling, with a 4 year old toddling around underfoot, and no one close enough to hear the screams when the child is scalded, carried upstairs, and stripped of her clothing. Then she blames Sybil for the accident. And forcing your adult daughters (18 and 23 at that point, right?) to follow you around Australia so you won't get lonely, dragging them away from their planned training, is just plain selfish. If she's going to be that lonely, she could stay in England, and go out to visit Jem for a month or so at a time.

 

#8:  Author: Elzbie, Location: London PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:54 am

I agree with the point that the Sybil/ Josette accident was more due to neglect, and that it was disgraceful to blame Sybil for it. What is even worse is the fact that everyone harps on about it for years! I was struck when reading this thread that although she is a major character, I remember almost nothing about Madge after the Tirol books. She does just fade. And it's a bit dissapointing when Joey comes back from Canada and says that Madge has become all 'brisk and snappy, like she used to be', but then we hear no more of her. It's only Madge who becomes 'background' to her doctor husband- not Joey or any of the rest, who stay pretty strong characters. I suppose that might be because she is made a lady etc, and is expected to be sweet and socially acceptable, whereas I always get the impression that Joey might be a bit, erm, unpredictable in company!

 

#9:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:23 am

Madge in the Tyrol books is a convincing character, it is only after Exile that she becomes forgotten about. The only time she is really brought in to the story is when there are major problems for the school, eg Miss Bubb. I also think that Madge's treatment of her children is a disgrace, none of the girls are allowed to pursue a carear, and the way she always refers to Ailie as her bad daughter really annoys me. Compared to Margot Maynard Ailie is a saint in my opinion and constantly referring to the bad points of your child is hardly a good way to bring up your child. It is in prefects that you realise how out of touch Madge is with her children, she does not know that her daughter is to be the queen of summer and is shocked when Joey tells her.

 

#10:  Author: Alex, Location: Hunts, UK PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:40 am

The Sybil/Josette/career thing is not the first time she does that - Joey was supposed to go to Belsornia to be Lady in Waiting to Elisaveta, which was a bit weird I know, but then all she says is that she has to help Madge so she isn't going. I know she was destined to marry Jack but even so. And even in the early days Madge does rely on men - Dick, Herr Marani, Herr Braun, Captain Trevallion (Belsornian bloke) and then Jem arrives on the scene pretty early in the series. I know she is constrained by the times, I think for example, that Herr Braun organises a lot of the building work, and I can see that a lot of the people working at the time would have been unlikely to take orders from a woman. After she has babies I'm not suprised she doesn't do much else. I know from family history that my great grandmother was considered very heartleess for devoting herself to business. As she only started the CS as a way of looking after herself and Joey it's not surprising that as soon as she got married and they had a bread winner in the family, she didn't need to keep working. In fact all things concerned, I'm suprised Madge ever took the initiative to start a school.

 

#11:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:58 pm

I will come out as not a huge Madge fan. I can see that she showed some gumption in starting the school, but even in 'School at' she is shown very heavily relying on the men around her for advice. I know that in some of the situations she would want advice as an inexperienced business woman, and I suppose in those days it was more likely to come from men, but the impression given is that it was because they were men and not because of their experience that she relied on them. Then she seemed to baby Joey long after she grew up, even while she was telling her to take responsibility. Keeping Joey at home instead of encourageing her to go to Belsornia was not good. Whikle it may have been Joey's idea Madge did not have to give in to her.Her treatment of all her children is, well not good. David seems to have been worshiped and could never put a foot wrong, Sybil..well lets not even go there! Josette was dragged off to Aus when she obviously wanted to go to Millies, and if memory serves Madge didn't even tell her herself, leaving Hilda to do it for her. Then Ailie seems to have been fporgotten except to mention how bad she was. I know there was Kevin and Kester as well, why weren't they enough for her in Aus, or did they stay at their English school?And what was all that with calling her 'Madame'?! EBD goes on about how it was a local tradition, a sign of respect from the Tyrolese girls that was adopted by the school, but in the early days they were trying to be very English so she could easily have stopped it very gently, yet even the staff do it and insist new staff do so, at her wishes, remember one of the bad matey's didn't! I can see no reason for it even then and certainly not to have been carried on when they left the Tiernsee unless it pandered to her vanity!!!

 

#12:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:11 pm

In Wins the Trick, Josette says Madge is "taking Sybs and the twins, and she wants me as well." I'm not sure whether the twins actually went, though, since as far as I know later books only talk about Sybil & Josette.

 

#13:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:37 pm

I don't think there is much I can add to this as most of the points seem to have been made already. Didn't EBD spend a summer in Austria a year or two before writing the CS? So she probably saw Madge as the person she would like to be - starting a successful school in a foreign country. Madge did rely a lot on the men of the area, both Herr Mensch and Herr Marani are called on a lot for their advice. Another thing I wonder about, reading the books as an adult, why did Madge arrange for the rental of the Chalet through Frau Pfeiffen if Herr Braun was actually the landlord? I would also agree that her treatment of her children is appalling - I wonder if things would have been different if Sybil had been born first? I also wonder if EBD meant to stop the series after Exile - or thought it would have to stop) and as Jo had replaced Madge in her affections Madge got pushed into the background and Jo made even more central.The worship of Madge when she makes brief appearances near the end of the series puzzles me as most of the girls who were at the school by then would not have known her. Like Carolyn I have never understood the Madame thing. I know they would want to distinguish her from Mademoiselle but what was wrong with Miss Bettany or the Head? Madge starts the series as a believeable feisty woman able to look after herself and Jo (up to a point) even rescuing 'Frau Berlin' from a train crash and ends it as a very dim shadow barely seen and only referred to in passing. I would have liked to see more of her, especialy as she was in the early days.

 

#14:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:24 pm

Ok, this is rather muddled, because my thoughts aren’t in good order at this (?any?) time of the day. And I do actually like Madge, most of the time, but... Look at how she starts off – she’s practically made the arrangements to start the school by herself, without any help from Dick before she tells him about it. And before the books start, in England Dick must have been in India most of the time and I get the impression that their guardian didn’t have a lot to do with their day-to-day lives, so she must have been raising Jo pretty much on her own before she goes to Austria. Then within a few weeks of starting the school, the rot starts to set in. I understand that she may need some support and advice, but isn’t it rather unethical of her to discuss Juliet’s parents with Herr Marani like that? After all, she can’t have known him very well at the time. In the early books and even as far as Exile she strongly feels the school belongs to her and is involved in it despite being at a distance – isn’t there a reference to all rules, prefects etc being approved by her? I don’t know when it became a limited company and there were other shareholders and if that was what affected her attitude towards it, but I agree the Joey then pushed her out of the place as the number-one non-teaching adult in the books. I think she could be a better mother than she is – especially regarding the Sybil-Josette-kettle incident. It’s interesting that the book that shows her at her worst, regarding that, also shows her at one of her best moments when she deals with Miss Bubb. It is times like that and when she fired Matron Webb that you see the strong independent woman who had the get-up-and-go to go to a foreign country and start a school with three pupils. I wish we saw a lot more of her like that and less of her as “Sir James Russell’s wife”. I hate to say it, but Madge doesn’t become ‘that sweet woman’ she becomes a spineless jellyfish! Liz

 

#15:  Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:06 pm

If I recall correctly, when she show up at the school in later years, she almost always leaves the twins behind, much to Joey's disappointment. And with Josette and Australia, she gets Miss Annersley to tell her that she isn't going to St Mildreds, but Annersley refuses to tell her why, saying that she must ask her mother! That's downright cruel. And then she tells Josette that she won't see much of her after she goes off to univeristy, so she wants some time with her. This, after sending her kids to boarding school in another country! I always figured it was karma that got both Josette and Sybil married to Australian residents, and living half the planet away from Madge.

 

#16:  Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:16 pm

Just wanted to say that I'm not sure how far it is possible to blame Madge for Joey not going to Belsornia. To me it sounds like a nice plan that the girls could make whaen they were young, but as they grew older, and looked at things more realistically, just didn't work. Joey knew nothing of what was really required of a lady in waiting, and can you really see Joey behaving in the perfectly decorous way that would have been constantly required? I don't think she would have been able to cope. And how would she have been able to developa career as an authoress - an ambition from before she ever met Elisaveta - when fully occupied at court? I know Joey says that it is because of Sybils birth that she isn't going, but hasd she wanted to go, another baby wouldn't have stopped her, especially with all the help they had at Die Rosen. When the other girls ask her what she is doing, they refer to the 'old plan' of going to Belsornia - they seem to think that this might not be realistic now. Whatever else is said about Madge, I think this is ine place where she cannot be blamed.

 

#17:  Author: Beth, Location: Back in Durham...nearly finished a whole year!! PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:02 pm

Just wanted to add my two penn'orth...I don't think it will make much sense, because I'm quite wound up about one thing or another, so....anyway, we'll give it a go, and please don't hate me for it! I actually really like Madge, and whilst I am sorry she doesn't appear much in the later books, I do think it's worth remembering that (as lots of people have already said) Joey becomes the central character, and Madge therefore becomes somewhat redundant. I realise this isn't to everybody's taste, but I personally think that it's a good thing - I don't think having two non-teaching adults having constant input into the school would have been good. Sometimes, and I think perhaps most of us do it, I forget that these are actually books written for children, and I know as I was growing up and reading them, it was Jo I identified with and loved once she was an adult, it was logical that she would become the central adult figure. After all, it was the school I was enjoying reading about - too many adults would have detracted from that. As it was, Madge was involved in the school in a completely different way to Joey, and as others have mentioned, it was a means to an end for her, rather than a life-long career. Joey repeatedly says that the school (in Tyrol) is her home, and so it is natural (in my 8 year old brain) that she would be the one we continue to hear about, rather than the person who is, to all intents and puposes, her parent. Equally, as far as her being dependent on men, again, perhaps we should look at it in the context of the time, rather than through our modern eyes. I think it's in Head Girl, when Grizel is on the train running away, that the narrative mentions something about it being unusual for a girl to travel on her own. It follows then, that it's fairly unusual for a young woman - very young, "only 24, Dick!" - to be setting up a home, and business, on her own, in a foreign country. Dick is very concerned about leaving her, and I know that even in this day and age, I'd be absolutely terrified! So perhaps it's natural for her to turn to the men around her for help remembering that in the time we're talking about, it was men who got stuff done. Also, though, she does look to the mothers of the early pupils for support - Frau Mensch, in Jo of, for example. (Or is it And Jo? I forget. The second book in the series, anyhoo.) And finally, Madge and her children...I always got the impression that Ailie was referred to as a bad girl as a sign of affection a teasing nick-name. Sybil I agree was done out, although I need to check the topic in Question Time to see if she was actually cheated of her training and Josette, again, I did feel sorry for, but it is worth noting that Australia is firstly only talked about as a replacement for Millies, and the intention seems to be that she will go to uni in the end. After all, gap years in Australia are very trendy these days... Oh dear, I've rambled. Basically, I realise that many of you will think that I'm just making excuses, and yes, I am, but I prefer to call it the case for the defence. My problem, you see, is that I loved the books when I was younger, and whilst I've always appreciated their, um, flaws (witness my forays into Drabble-land), essentially I loved them, and loved the characters. Madge set up the Chalet School. For that fact alone, people, you've got to love her! *Runs away to hide before lynch mob gets her* P.S - haven't really made much sense, if you'd like clarification on any of my arguments, PLEASE do let me know and I'll do my best!

 

#18:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:06 am

I agree with everyone especially Beth! Smile I'm too tired and ill to come up with opinions of my own right now. Maybe later.

 

#19:  Author: Josie, Location: London PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:49 am

Beth wrote:
Oh dear, I've rambled. Basically, I realise that many of you will think that I'm just making excuses, and yes, I am, but I prefer to call it the case for the defence. My problem, you see, is that I loved the books when I was younger, and whilst I've always appreciated their, um, flaws (witness my forays into Drabble-land), essentially I loved them, and loved the characters.
Totally appreciate what you say here Beth, This is exactly the reason why I can never think too badly of Joey!

 

#20:  Author: Ruth, Location: Physically: Lincolnshire, England. Inwardly: The Scottish Highlands PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 am

I have always liked Madge. I think she was very brave leaving England and starting a school in a foreign country when she had no experience at all. I always liked her relationship with her sister (actually I've never known anyone who is that fond of their sister!). I suppose it is from having to be mother to her. I would have liked to see more of her in the later books but she just seems to almost vanish when the school removes to England. I think she is a wee bit awful with her children - but then with a brat like Sybil I wouldn't take much notice of her either. Joey is much better with her children than Madge is. I don't see why Josette had to go to Australia but it made everyone sit up when she married at nineteen, didn't it!? Does anyone else wonder why, after Madge always hoping that the school could move back to the Tyrol, why she didn't buy a chalet there, like Jack and Joey? Even if it was only for holidays.

 

#21:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:42 am

Didn't she have use of the St Scholastika's chalet, or even part-share it with Joey & Jack? Liz

 

#22:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:36 am

I think she did. It's in Future I think that it says she and Jem are going to stay in Tyrol before they go to Australia.

 

#23:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:35 am

I have a feeling that it also says in Joey & Co in Tirol that Madge & co are going out in September or October.

 

#24:  Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:45 pm

Plucky early Madge gets full marks from me. I didn't read most of the later books until I was a parent myself, and looking at Madge's relationship with her children through that lens, I'm appalled! Shocked But I do give her credit for taking on all those extra children. In some respects, she's sort of like visiting royalty later in the series, graciously entertaining groups of girls at the Round House, opening the sale and so on. Very two dimensional, and definitely taking a back seat to EBD's favorite characters.

 

#25:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:54 pm

I like Madge in the early books- probably up to Exile. After that, I'm pretty much indifferent. In some drabbles, I come very close to actively disliking her! Re Jo and Belsornia, I get the impression that whoever said it came from Madge was right. As far as Joey knows, she's going, and she seems to be looking forward to it in a mild kind of way, though rather regretting having to leave school. Then when she's told she gets to stay in school longer, she's overjoyed- only to be informed that, essentially, she has to stay cos Mary Burnett is leaving early and Jo will be the next HG, no argument!

 

#26:  Author: Catherine_B, Location: Oxford, UK PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:19 pm

Like everyone else, I like Madge best in the early Tyrol books. Favourite episode has to be Christmas at the Mensches - I love how EBD captures her as both a girl and a woman. Just wondering, when she goes to Australia and says she needs company - if it was adult company, surely she could have made friends her own age? Presumably there'd have been an awful lot of doctors' wives around. If it was that she wanted a daughter around, why couldn't she have taken Ailie out of the CS and put her in school in Australia? Yes, I know it would be sacriligious for a Bettany-offspring not to finish at the CS, but it wouldn't have been that unusual in reality!

 

#27:  Author: Beth, Location: Back in Durham...nearly finished a whole year!! PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:03 am

Ruth wrote:
I think she is a wee bit awful with her children - but then with a brat like Sybil I wouldn't take much notice of her either.
Laughing ROTFL Laughing

 

#28:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:24 am

[quote="Catherine_B"]Just wondering, when she goes to Australia and says she needs company - if it was adult company, surely she could have made friends her own age?/ [quote] Con Stewart lived close to them when they were in Australia I think it says somewhere so why couldn't she have been enough company for Madge is what I want to know! Um for some reason I can't qoute properly, don't quite know what I've done. Have tried to fix it but can't! Embarassed

Last edited by Cazx on Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total

 

#29:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:27 am

Cazx I think you need a / (possibly the other way round I can never get them right) in the end quote bit. Just wondering about Australia - Madge managed alright when she went to Canada with Jem (ok so she had small children with her then) so why was Australia different? Liz

 

#30:  Author: Catherine_B, Location: Oxford, UK PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:31 am

Maybe she actually really hated the Canada trip and that was why she demanded company for Australia!

 

#31:  Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:40 pm

I've been thinking about the adjustments Madge had to make over her life. First there was living in India with parents, although she probably wouldn't have seen that much of them, but there would have been people like Ayahs (sp??) that she was close to. Then there was the arrival of a baby sister which would have caused dispruption and then her parents died. After that there must have been a pretty miserable time, when decisions were made for her and Dick and they must have both felt very insecure. Then the voyage back to England and a Guardian. From reading the books, it appears that they were reasonably well off - quite a lot of foreign travel, the usual maids, good education, large house. Madge at this point assumes responsibility for Joey, although she is actually only 12 years older. I wonder just how much responsibility she actually had, and whether she felt responsible becasue there had been so much change in her life and looking after a baby sister gave her some stability. At the start of the series, it's clear that Dick has been working out in India for some time, so Madge would yet again have had more change and people *abandonning* her. Although it is glossed over (with a laugh!) in the books, it must have been a huge shock when their Guardian died and it was discovered that there was no money left and that they would have to completely uproot again. Once she started the school it rapidly grew and developed from the small enterprise she had envisaged. I can imagine her being half thrilled by this and half wondering what would go wrong. Once she has met Jem, it must have been a huge relief, to become the little woman and let him make decisions - I do see Jem as a father figure - certainly for Joey (who never had one so a big shock for her) and also for Madge. I wonder how much the looking after/adopting Juliet/Robin/Grizel/Dick's kids/Stacie etc was also a way of making herself feel needed and loved? She then had the worry of the escape from Austria - not knowing what was happening to Joey, Robin and the rest of the fugivtives and having to pack up and leave with all the children in such a hurry. Again they could not settle in Guernsey and had to uproot again. By this time, I can imagine Madge being deeply insecure that anything good would last. Maybe she also found it hard to be emotionally attatched to her children as she feared they would just be torn away from her like she was from her parents. When they went to Canada she was pregnant and would then be involved (however marginally by our eyes) with the care of the babies, which may have helped her to feel more secure. In Australia, Jem was to be touring around and she may have felt that she was being *abandonned* again, hence needing to take the girls with her. Also as she had had so much disruption and loss in her life, she may not have realised how much Josette and Sybil were having to give up. sorry never meant to write that much Embarassed Embarassed edited to change Allie to Josette Embarassed

Last edited by Dawn on Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total

 

#32:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:15 pm

That's really insightful, Dawn, I never thought of it like that before. I think that could be very true.

 

#33:  Author: Ellie, Location: Lincolnshire PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:34 pm

Very interesting Dawn, I'd never thought of Madge seeing Jem as a father figure, but I think you may well be right.It is very true about the death of the guardian being glossed over - I think EBD sometimes introduced situations as a plot device without really thinking about how it would affect the characters, but since she was writing for a younger age group, she probably didn't need to go too deeply, it isn't something that I particularly noticed when reading as a child.As far as dragging the girls to Australia is concerned, I just saw it as a natural extension of the idea that adults know best and it was the child's duty to obey them unquestioningly, and I'm sure she would have still seen them as children - they were certainly both still dependent upon her and Jem.

 

#34:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:12 am

Maybe, Madge was also partly worried about whether the girls would be ok when she was the other side of the world from them?Liz

 

#35:  Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:05 pm

She didn't seem to worry much about whather, Ailie, Keven and Kester would be all right on the other side of the world from her, did she? Madge was all right in the Tirol books, and did a good job of starting the school, and don't forget how flatteringly EBD portrayed her then, but she went downhill rapidly after marrying Jem. I can't see how someone so sporting and capable just dwindled off into a little woman. And as for taking Sybil and Josette to Australia, she was a grown woman, and supposedly capable of managing a large house, large family, and we're told in 'Gay' she ran the farm attached to the Round House, so why did she break her word to her children? I think that it was another case of EBD not thinking things through, and just wanting to get rid of that family in order to concentrate on the Maynards. ETA: it was the complacency with which the announcement was made that annoyed me, as though Sybil and Josette were not to be allowed to have any thoughts and wishes of their own.

 

#36:  Author: Helen, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:41 am

I do like Madge most of the time though sometimes I think EBD didn't always have a firm grip on her. In the early books a strong, firm woman then an obedient wife. The young woman girlishly climbing a tree to see Jem arriving and then another time in the early books she and Miss Maynard (?) complaining about modern children. They sounded so middle age not two young women in their twenties. About Sybil and Josette. At least the latter did to go to University of Sydney but then marries young. Also how old was Sybil when she went to Australia? I am sure that Jo said her niece was 24 years old when she married in Australia so if Sybil had been in Australia for a year or two she would had had time to have her time at needlework college before going out to Australia wouldn't she? Could someone better at the years than me be able to work that out? (Whoops! Looks like that was discussed in another thread) It does look like though that Sybil does do needlework, I am sure there is some mention of her sending some of her work to one of the Sales. Of course she may had just done it as a hobby never as a profession.

 

#37:  Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:18 pm

She was described as sitting embroidering when she was in the Sixth form. The whole point is, if Sybil was as old as that, why were her parents still ruling her life and making decisions for her?

 

#38:  Author: Helen, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:50 am

I get an impression from my mother (b. 1928) and others of her vintage that you were a "child" - whatever your biological age was - until you left home and that most, including sons, only left home when they married. This would be Sybil's era and her family were rather conservative too. Sybil was taught obedience. Of course she might had like the idea of visiting Australia.

 

#39:  Author: Ellie, Location: Lincolnshire PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:17 pm

We all know that EBD was a bit flexible when it comes to ages, but I don't have the impression that Sybs was as old as 24 when she first went to Australia, but whilst she was still living under her parents roof, so to speak, I'm sure they would expect her to obey their wishes.

 

#40:  Author: Mollio, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:02 am

I like Madge for maybe the first two chapters of the first book. After that I find her a pain in the butt. She comes across to me as cold and calculating in her treatment of Joey...seems to 'slot' her in for allotted moments of closeness. Calls her 'Joey-Baba' when she wants something ( or when EBD wants us to think she's a loving sister). Fusses and freaks out over minor things, e.g. a tablecloth used for charades up at the Sonnalpe.
As you might surmise, I am not a fan of Madge!

 

#41:  Author: joelle, Location: lancashire, england PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:05 pm

Quote:
The young woman girlishly climbing a tree to see Jem arriving

when does that happen? is it in a hardback or a drabble?

 

#42:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:21 pm

No, it's in Princess, the hb version:

‘I though you were practicing,’ replied Madge. ‘How you do love to climb about, Joey! You must have been a monkey in your last incarnation, I should think!’
Joey chuckled. ‘You can’t talk, my dear! Who was up in the chestnut only last Saturday? And you a headmistress at that!’
‘It was only to see if I could see Jem coming along the path,’ said her sister defensively. ‘None of the girls saw me.’
‘I should hope not! They were all out for a walk – except the Robin.’
‘Oh! So that’s how you know! I thought you were with the others! I must tell the Robin not to tell tales out of school.’
Joey laughed. ‘She thought it was a splendid thing for you to do. She told me all about how Tante Marguerite had climbed up as well as Grizel or I could do. She seemed to think it was an additional gift of yours. I don’t believe she thinks any grown-up can climb trees.’
‘I hope she doesn’t tell the others about it!’ exclaimed Madge.
‘Don’t worry, old thing,’ replied Joey, slipping her hand through her sister’s arm. ‘I told her that it wasn’t the sort of thing to talk about with the others – just a family affair between ourselves and we must keep it a secret.’
‘Good for you, Joey! I don’t want the others to think that they have a tomboy for a headmistress! The Robin, bless her, would never think of that side of it!’

 

#43:  Author: Kat, Location: Swansea PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:36 pm

I never knew about that bit!!

*grrr's loudly at publishers for cutting up books*

 

#44:  Author: joelle, Location: lancashire, england PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:46 pm

awwww thats so sweet! though ebd doesnt seem to focus on that aspect.
poke at stupid publishers!

 

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