Joey
The CBB -> Book Discussions
#1: Joey Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:15 am

Character discussions start here!This week's character is Joey herself ... and just in case you need a refresher on who she is, Rolling Eyes , a brief character description may be found hereWho wants to get things started?!

 

#2:  Author: Lulie, Location: Middlesbrough PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:46 pm

*being brave* I'll go first - unless somebody else pips me to the post! Warning - I'm not very good at character assinations....er... discussions! I think that Joey is a very believable character in the first part of the series, probably up until the time the School moves to St Briavels. As a child she has her fair share of faults and does silly things, like we all did as kids (such as throwing flowers onto Napoleon's tomb and almost being arrested for it!). OK, she has more than her fair share of talents caring nature, superb singing voice, writing talent, personal charm, ability to speak three gazillion languages etc etc. but they are balanced with faults. She has a nasty temper, she is thoughtless, untidy, exceptionally silly when it comes to the dentist (but aren't we all?) and probably a teensy bit spoilt, a process that Jack seems to carry on after their marriage. After the school moves to the Island (possibly when the Maynards go to Canada) she seems to allow her less desirable traits to come to the surface. Sure, she's still caring and so on, but she seems to want to be the only one who is so. The School, apparently, cannot function without her pastoral care for difficult new girls, or old girls come to that. She starts her desire to have the biggest family ever, and considers small families to be beneath contempt (i.e. her remark to Simone in Joey Goes), and her children are bigger and better than anybody else (when Hilary Graves gives birth to Lois and she is a HUGE baby, Joey has to have gone one better with Stephen being bigger, by quite a lot, if memory serves me correctly). It's little things like that which spoil Joey's previously pleasant character for me. I can cope with her "interfering" because nobody's perfect (except me, of course Twisted Evil ), but the sudden escalation of her previously extrovert personality into a busybody one, and her desire to be the best at it all really grates. I can imagine that, to a newcomer, she is actually quite frightening!!!! Oh, and those earphones. Need I say more? Is that the kind of thing we're aiming at, Rachael? Hope so!

 

#3:  Author: Richenda,  PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:21 pm

There's just sooooooo much on Joey!! 1.) Joey the schoolgirl - this is my favourite of the Joey's - she realistic, believable, doesn't want the responsibility of being head girl, and although she always has to be the centre of attention, she has enough bad faults to make her likeable 2) Joey the young adult - I often think that this is the point at which EBD transfered her own desires and attributes onto Joey (whereas previously she may have likened herself more with Madge). BUT I think this is where Joey becomes more of a plaster saint who can do no wrong(oh, the irony, after Matey's comments on Malvina wins through!). 3) Joey the Mother - I've found myself irritated that Joey competes with her children - as with everyone else, whatever anyone else has done, she's gone (at least) one better. Having said that, I always loved Joey when I was growing up, and wanted to be just like her. Maybe I just think too much now. May I chuck in a couple of questions? 1)Why was Joey seen as 'the best head girl ever'. Why was she seen as being better than say Gisela? 2) Could the CS series have continued WITHOUT Joey, for example if she hadn't returned from Canada, or is she needed as the ever present link?

 

#4:  Author: Jennie, Location: Cambridgeshire PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:28 pm

I agree that as a schoolgirl, Jo was OK. It's her adult persona that is so annoying. I agree with Ally that she has to outdo everyone else in the family stakes, more children, bigger babies, and all the rest. Bearing in mind that no-one else in the novel, apart from Madge, has the household help that Jo does, it's no wonder that she is presented as a sort of superwoman. But, has anyone else noticed, just how often Jo puts most of the hard work onto other people? I'm not objecting to others being asked to help around the house, that's natural, but she gets all the credit! For example, in 'Joey & Co', when they go on the picnic, the girls are doing the really hard work of getting the food prepared, the boys are getting things together, and Jo, Jo is making a few flasks of drinks! Anna has already got up early to bake pies and stuff, so how was Jo working so hard? It's with her interference in the school that I really have an issue. Jo is a mother, a writer, yes. So how is it that these well-qualified, superbly professional women need to hand over the problem girls to Jo to sort out? If Hilda Annersley is such a wonderful Headmistress, believe me, she wouldn't need Jo Maynard. This is a dichotomy that I find unacceptable. One cannot portray a marvellous Headmistress who is unable to cope with problem girls. If Jo had apppeared from time to time in the books, and left the CS to do what it does best, that is, educate fictional girls, it would have been so much better. As it is, I simply cannot understand a school where all the girls dote on and worship an old girl, not without exception. When OG's return to a school, SOME of the pupils will gravitate towards her, and want to spend time with her, but not ALL of them. And another thing about this, isn't it rather unnatural for a mature woman to come into a school and ask the senior girls and prefects for all the gossip? And it is simply unnatural that the staff feel that nothing important can happen unless Jo is involved. Most staff rooms want to be left to get on with it, not have interfering parents popping in at odd times. Then, there are her children. It's always 'Mamma knows best.' with them, and with the adoptees, too. Yet they live such absurdly sheltered lives, they really move in a tiny circle, and are so closely shielded from reality, that in RL, no CS girl would be able to survive. Of course, feel free to disagree with me.

 

#5:  Author: Rachael,  PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:30 pm

Yay!! This is exactly the sort of thing we're after and thanks so much for setting the ball rolling, Lulie!! Very Happy I think Joey was branded best HG ever, at the time, because her empathy with others (after all, she was no angel) and ability to get under people's skin meant that she could deal with issues in a way that perhaps her predecessors hadn't or couldn't ... Gisela, Juliet and Mary were all quite law-abiding folk and responsible from the start ... Bette we don't know much about and Grizel was competent but no one would call her ideal ... Jo, I think could connect more with others ... Whether Joey still deserves that title as the books progress, I'm not so sure ... she is followed by some excellent HGs, not least her own daughter... so it would be interesting to see some comparisons ... Perhaps it's just more of a wish on EBD's part because Jo was and is the central character and she didn't want her usurped? I'm sure the series could have coped without Joey ... but whether EBD could have dealt with that, I'm not so sure ... I sometime think that half of Joey's problem is the way EBD writes her and the fact that it seems so out-dated and grating now ... those of you that were fortunate enough to read the later books as they were published ... how did you feel about Joey then as distinct from how you feel about her now? ETA after reading Jennie's post: I always thought that Hilda & co bring in Joey when they feel an outsider may be of greater assistance i.e. someone who isn't a teacher or so cloaely connected to the school so may have more impact because they're not of the institution (yes, I see the irony of that but you know what I mean!!)

 

#6:  Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:58 pm

I agree with the other posters - I like Joey as a girl. She's even much more believable than a lot of the later characters - could you see Mary-Lou or Len playing practical jokes on the Middles like Joey does as a sub prefect? As an older adult her faults don't go away, but the recognition of them does. Her busybody tendencies, her competititveness, the way she randomly bounces into the school to interrupt, her emotional volatility, are all seen as virtues rather than character flaws. I can see how it would be nice to have someone close to the school but not it it - to bounce ideas off of, to check with for obscure bits of school lore, but it all seems to be done on Joey's timetable and whim, and not the rest of the school, and it does seem odd that every single new girl falls all over her. Maybe it's the "She's Josephine Bettany" allure. And it is a bit sickening how much she's praised for having hordres of children. The help (Anna, Rosli and Mother's helper), I would look at as being the equivalent of a working mother with two maids and a nanny these days, but her airy assurances that 'It's easier when you have more' totally ignore the fact that her family needs to be very well off to manage the lifestyle they have, and that she's hiring people to do most of the actual work. I wouldn't quite say she's spoiled as a girl - more like coddled, or over protected, and that *is* something that Jack continues. Joey is always taken care of. She's told to rest when she gets over excited, by slipping something in her drink if necessary, she's sent off to vacations without the kids when she gets overworked, she's not told of problems with her children if it would upset her unduly. In some ways, she never has to take an adult responsibility for her own well being, as she's always told by an external source what to do, and is taken care of when she's 40 in the same way as when she was 16.

 

#7:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:13 pm

Of all three Joey's it is the younger one that I like best. She was more fun and believable because she had faults. She was not the perfect humand of the later books, she was tactless, impatient and sometimes even a bit of a bully (I'm thinking of her attitude to Simone). As headgirl I've often wondered why she has been declared best of all, there did not seem to be many major problems for her-there was Thelka of course and well Joey as head girl could be seen to have failed there. On the other hand there was Joyce Linton, who she did help. I feel that EBD did not know what to do without Joey being in the series, after she leaves school she is brought back in the very next book, which I feel is slightly OTT. Fair enough bring her back for a term but not the very next term after she leaves. I like Joey up until Rescue but from then on she just begins to irritate me. The later Joey of the Swiss books seems to be completely out of touch with the world to me and is prepared to wrap her daughters in cotton wool and hide them from the dangers in the fairyland that is the Platz (though this could be because she is in cotton wool herself). There are times in the later books where you do think "Good for Joey" I'm think of the time in Joey and co when Jack is being horrid to Mike and she leaps to his defence and tries to go and see him. But by the end of the series these scenes are too far between to make me really like her.

 

#8:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:15 pm

I like Joey as a character when she is a schoolgirl, as has previously been said, she had far more talents than the norm, but they were balanced by her faults. During the time in England/Wales though, we slowly see the faults plastered over, they are still there, but ignored or looked upon as virtues. I think EBD could have moved Joey away from the series when they went to Canada. I don't think the series would have lost by it, it may in fact have grown further, but instead she makes a point of ensuring she is mentioned in the few books she's away (Shocks, Carola, Wrong) and makes a totally unbelievable trip across the Atlantic by plane with 3 month old twins just because the CS couldn't cope without Jo at Xmas! I agree with Jennie that her presence once the School is in Switzerland actually diminishes and weakens that of Miss Annersley - if it were me I would be very unhappy at having the sister of the School's owner butting in all the time. And I find it unlikely that every girl and Staff member almost without fail would worship her! The main difficulty is that EBD identified with her and couldn't seem to let her go. In my opinion that attitude changed a very likeable and natural character into an overbearing, tactless and manipulative one. A pity.

 

#9:  Author: Alex, Location: Hunts, UK PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:54 pm

It is strange how Jo was able to get under peoples' skins because she was not perfect, but later it is portrayed that she can do it because she has uncanny gifts and is perfect. I don't dislike Jo as much as some people do, and I can see how she would be welcome in the staff room on occasion - some variety - but not if they saw her everyday.

 

#10:  Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:11 am

She may have been welcomed, but I seem to recall a scene in the study where Miss Annersley cuts Joey off from yet another tiresome repetition of some story. I've always been amazed at how unhappy new girls who dislike the school are magically converted upon having English tea and hearing tales of Joey's youth. Must have been something in those cakes...

 

#11:  Author: Donna, Location: Liverpool PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:21 am

Joey has always been my favourite character, and I suppose as a child I sort of had a longing to be like her - not the constant illness of course (!) but a person with the same knack for understanding people. I should also admit that I was one of those readers who was inspired in learning languages by wanting to know so many - like Joey (although I never quite managed it - schoolgirl French and German was as far as I got!) I think there's a major difference in how we see joey when we were reading as a child, and how we see her now as adults. Certainly since re-reading the series I can pick out all her flaws very easily, and yes, she does annoy me as she gets older. When i was reading the books for the first time however, I never picked up on most of them. I remember being disappointed with the books in which she was only mentioned, and my favourite books always had Joey playing a major role. Viewpoints change though, and I sometimes wish that EBD had left Joey alone after a certain point (that old fondness for her remains still though!) I can understand why she wanted to keep Joey in such a major role, especially as someone says above, when she started to project herself onto her character, and I think to a child it works (it did for me, though I was reading them at a fairly young age and had a rather sheltered upbringing). anyway, to look at the three stages of Joey - the schoolgirl - easily the most believable incarnation. She has her faults, which while they often land her in trouble, are not extreme and could probably be found in most schoolgirls to a lesser or greater extent. Her talents - ok, she does seem to be over-burdened with them, but not really any more than other schoolgirl heroines of the time. And they work in the context of the books. Joey as a young adult and mother - I like her as she's growing up - Jo Returns has always been one of my favourite books and it gives us the opportunity to see that she has developed. Her engagement in Exile is a bit sudden (but wasn't it always with EBD?!), but her relationship with Jack from then onwards is very realistic, and again we see how Joey is growing up. The birth of the triplets continues the process (although joey, as always, has difficulty taking things seriously - and this is where her character starts to take on unbelievable aspects). Her reaction in Highland Twins to the news of Jack's 'death' is heartbreakingly realistic, and throughout the series i think it is in the portrayal of their relationship that Joey's character remains most believable. Of course, then we get to Joey as an interfering adult. Even now there are flashes of character that are believable, but there are too many books where you want to cringe at almost everything Joey says or does. Barring the triplets, her children seem to be almost ignored by her, she can't recognise that it's Anna, Rosli and the triplets who seem to do all the work around the house (it's even Len who thanks Anna for her work!). Her relationship with the school seems, quite frankly, unhealthy for her, and she becomes far too competitive. having said all that, she's still my favourite. and who knows - as everyone did seem to worship her, maybe that's the way the schoolgirl would have turned out in RL! (sorry, ended up rambling a bit!)

 

#12:  Author: Vikki, Location: Sitting on an iceberg, freezing to death!!! PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:43 am

I definitely agree that Joey as a schoolgirl is by far the most realistic stage of her evolution. Although I DO like her as a young wife and mother too. She definitely becomes less of a natural character as she ages. (although she's never bugged me in QUITE the way she seems to irritate some people.....)

 

#13:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:03 am

I like Joey in all her incarnations, but I think I prefer her between the ages of 16 and 22 or so, when she's really growing up and thinking about things. It's also good to see characters like Eustacia who don't fall flat for her- and Miss Wilson makes this point- but at the same time, there's something of an implicit assumption that Eustacia's earlier inability to like Joey is symptomatic of her general unChaletness. I think the war books are good, but I think the areas that grate on me most are the later bits, notably when Margot is in such trouble in Theodora and Triplets. OK, Joey had just had twins in Ted, and fair enough, she does beg Miss Annersley to tell her and *she* flatly refuses. Sometimes its the other characters who prevent Joey from being a good mother by thwarting her desires/instincts. This happens quite a few times. I do get annoyed by her 'butter in' mentality sometimes- with Mary-Lou in particular. In both Mary-Lou and Trials, Jo is instrumental in getting ML to help out with a troubled girl 'becaude she'd do it anyway.' If she was going to do it anyway, why break confidentiality and push her in the right direction? And personally, I think Jo's methods of getting ML to take on Jessica verge on emotional blackmail.

 

#14:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:55 am

It's not just with ML that Joey uses that type of arguement - witness her methods of getting the Triplets to agree to take on Melanie Lucas in A Future CS Girl.

 

#15:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:07 am

I actually don't mind the way she does it in Future -a lot of mothers would say "Melanie's coming, no discussion". At least the trips feel like they have a say in the matter.

 

#16:  Author: Elzbie, Location: London PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:00 am

I like Jo when she is a young woman growing up the best. When she is a child, she always strikes me as a bit of a brat- she does some ridiculous things, but ends up never being punished or as a heroine to the school. She is also not really the prime choice for head girl- as has been said, she plays pranks and does stupid things when she's a sub- what price Anne (can't remember second name), the one who was meant to be after Joey, who does not get the headship because of a silly moment? EBD double standards I think! One of Jo's finest hours was Exile/ at War- she is portrayed as tired, caring, emotional but strong (no hot milk during the flight from the Nazis!), and in all has an air of realism about her which as others have said is lost in the later books where she becomes a moral device (there is a name for this kind of figure in lit- can't remember- anyone know??). Joey the perfect parent never rings true, and she is an interfering old bat. Maybe if EBD had let her grow up properly and become a mother figure (none of this skipping around as though she was a school girl herself nonsense!), it would have been more reasonable to expect kids to want to talk to her. As it is, they seem to be coerced into it- she already knows everything, so why not...... Grrrrrrr! Sorry, incoherent this morning! Embarassed

 

#17:  Author: Josie, Location: London PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:15 am

I like Jo best as a young woman as well, from when she leaves school, through to Lavender/Gay. I actually like her best in Rescue, there are moments that make you realise just what a young mum she really was. And her reaction to Jack's 'death' is just heart-breaking. I do like her as a child too though - as people have said she's over-endowed with talent, but her many faults sort of balance it out. She does like to be centre of attention, but sure we all knew kids like that! And I've certianly met a few people who are so kind, charismatic and charming that you find yourself willing to make allowances for their faults and need for attention. I never really find her as annoying as some people do, and was never that bothered by the fact that she was so involved with the school - they seemed to ask her most of the time anyway, rather than her butting in. It's only in the second half of the Swiss books that I find her a overbearing and not very real. Always felt like EBD seemed to be using her as a moral marker rather than developing her as a real character at this point. I actually find Joey less annoying than Len, who seems to be one of those too-good-to be-true girls EBD was always putting down in the early books! But then to be honest, always felt like EBD lost the plot a bit in the later Swiss books anyway - they all grate on me somewhat! The only time I do find her believable towards the end is when she breaks down to Hilda about Phil. Thought that reaction was very real.

 

#18:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:16 pm

My favourite incarnation of Joey is her as a schoolgirl. Part of the reason for this is personal. When I first read the books it was Joey who reeled me in and Joey who kept my interest and so the 9 yr old me wanted to be Joey living in such beautiful surroundings. Also, when I was having troubles at school, I loved Joey because she always made an effort to include everyone (of course except those who didn't like Robin Wink ) Also compared to later heroines ML and Len she is so much more realistic in terms of getting into scrapes. I just wish she hadn't been injured quite so much to avoid real punishments! I wish we could have seen more of Joey in her late teens and twenties. I feel we miss out on so many years that Joey the growing up child suddenly becomes Joey the mother of 5 and it seems EBD looses her way a bit with Joey and she becomes the stereotype. She also sometimes comes across as far too smothering and protective of her daughters. I can understand her not wanting to be parted from the Triplets when the are 11 in the run up to their move to Switzerland but I do wonder how the girls felt when they were older, having there mother on the doorstep knowing all about their behaviour. Also what the boys felt about being sent back to England!

 

#19:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:49 pm

*dons flame proof undies* OK. I'm going to buck the trend here and say that out of the three incarnations of Joey, the one I like least is young schoolgirl Joey. Which is not to say she's not a well drawn character - she is, as plenty of people have said - I just find her annoying in the way she expects to get away with stuff (and does). As for Joey in the rest of the series, I like her. I don't pick up that EBD's trying to hold Joey up as some sort of moral standard I don't even, particularly, think that EBD turned Joey into a complete and utter paragon. One of the nicest scenes Joey features in after she's left school has GOT to be the scene in Reunion where she welcomes Grizel home - it's not the welcome of some interferring old bat, but of someone who does genuinely care about her guest it's a scene that always makes me smile. As far as her involvement with the school goes: How often is it that she butts in of her own accord and how often is it that the school (one way or another) ask her for help/advice? My impression is that it's more often the school asking her. Off the top of my head, in fact, about the only time I can recall Joey butting in unasked is actually in New/United (if you're going by the pbs!) when she lands on the prefects' operation to catch middles on the roof. That's as compared to being asked to teach four times, asked by the prefects for help at least twice, asked by the Head Mistress for help more times than I can probably count without looking through each and every book from the time she left school (!)... Equally, I've seen people complain about the way she arranges Simone's life/possessions in Joey Goes, but the problem with that complaint is that Simone expressly asks Joey's advice! Yes, some of her remarks are patronising (I think I'd have found her comment to Simone about her family patronising even as a ten year old) and yes, her advocating Mary Lou be brought in in ML and Trials is a bit irritating (though in the latter case, particularly, firstly, the staff say no and secondly, again, it's the staff who've asked for an opinion not Joey offering it gratis). Overall, though, I don't find Joey the adult nearly so irritating as Joey the school girl. Ray *awaiting reaction with interest*

 

#20:  Author: Elzbie, Location: London PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:16 pm

Has to be said, you're right about the school asking her for advice and help all the time Ray. Bizzarly, though, the one time that you'd think she was really needed, in Ted when Margot goes off the rails, is a time she is not brought in. I wondered about that, but I suppose ML was there to deal with it. I think this may have coloured my veiw of Joey, as I remember thinking that if she is strong enough to worry about and play mother to Ted, then surely she can do so with her own daughter. Food for thought.... this may ness. another read through, with all POV in mind! P.S- sorry to post amillion times, I'm bored at work!

 

#21:  Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:29 pm

Theodora was the point at which I really lost patience with the adult Joey. Her whole attitude towards Ted is just unbelieveable - deciding on a nickname for her and telling her that is all she needs to become a better person. What right does she have? Any other fourteen year old would probably have objected to a complete stranger meddling in their life and would have continued to make trouble if only to show that she was an individual in her own right and wouldn't take orders from some random woman she'd only just met. swear Oh, and there's the fact that in Trials she announces she's 'busy' and tells the assembled staff "Oh we're hoping for twins again", and lo and behold, she gets twins. It's just a minor point and it's completely plausible, but it annoys me beyond reason!

 

#22:  Author: claire, Location: South Wales PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:27 pm

Although Jo does bug me a lot when she's an adult that bit in trials seems fine to me, I assumed that she had a feeling it was more than one (due to size etc or maybe them thinking the could feel more than one) but not knowing for definate

 

#23:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:35 pm

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought too- that she already had a pretty good suspicion. What was antenatal care like in the 50s? Havinf said all the above, I agree with Ray in what she says about Reunion in particular. And remember her reaction in Carola when Grizel accidentally injures Len and Hilda has to talk Jo into staying calm- but then Joey herself goes and does a good deal to help Grizel? That's human too. There are lots of flashes of really human behaviour- likeable and not= interspersed with the more irritating Perfect Old Girl/Wife/Mother/Friend etc.

 

#24:  Author: Ruth, Location: Physically: Lincolnshire, England. Inwardly: The Scottish Highlands PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:43 am

Joey has always been one of my most favourite characters. I like her best of all as a girl. I never have found her annoying as some others have. I think she is kind, understanding and helpful! I like the way she is with her children and I would find her an easy person to talk to if I had a problem or anything else. I think the way she handled Ted Grantley was just the kind of way the kid needed talking to (it certainly made her behave differently). I like to see how loving she comes across with Jack and the children and with other members of the family. In Joey EBD created a realistic and intricate character with all the good things and yet many faults that are in many real people.

 

#25:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:25 pm

I have always liked the Jo. I didn't have much of a problem with the adult one either until I joined this board and began to look at her from different angles. The young Jo is a funloving kid, ok perhaps she knows more languages than most but being tied to the house due to illness may have sparked off an interest and learning languages was something she could do without coughing or getting tired. She does get away with things but she is the head's sister! In the English years I don't find her that irritating but it is a coincidence too far when she has to move to Carnbach just as the school goes to the Island. It is from this point onwards that she seems to rely rather heavily on the school. In the Swiss years she does spend a lot of time at the school but also she provides somewhere for the staff to go (especially on a Sunday) that whilst not being entirely uncionnected to the school is outsie the school grounds and away from most of the others. I feek sorry for her children! Her sons whom she doesn't seem to see once they are eight years old and her daughters are sent to boarding school but next door to where they live. Surely the point of going to boarding school was to go away from home? I would have been one unhappy teenager if my mum had suggested taking someone else on holiday with us - mind you we were lucky to get ten days away never mind most of the summer holidays! Would have been more acceptable after a week or so rather than from day one. I thin Jo always felt she had to be the star attraction and she had to be needed. She was the one consulted over all the pranks and referred too when someone wanted to know what was accectable in English schools (thinking Gisela and the school mag here) then she had to get to know the new girls and staff from when the school moved to England. It was as though there was something missing in her live and she had to fill it.

 

#26:  Author: Joey, Location: Cambridge PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:47 pm

Joey is one of the reasons I carried on reading CS books after my first three (Island, Princess and Problem - talk about confusing!) One of the things that attracted me to the child Joey is her similarity to Jo March in Little Women. I know EBD denied that there was a deliberate similarity, but our Joey makes the comparison herself in Camp. It was Jo March who reconciled me to my name when I was seven, and Jo Bettany reinforced that a few years later. As has been said above, both have a greater than usual share of talents which is balanced by their faults. I find the child Joey totally believable. She's a gifted child - and gifted children are special needs - but she's not strong and needs looking after, so it's natural that she should break out sometimes. I agree with jennifer that she's coddled rather than spoiled - in fact, I think Madge takes care not to spoil her. When she is head girl, she's the best there's been. There are better head girls later, but I sometimes think EBD doesn't want to acknowledge this, as she idenitifies too closely with Joey. The first time she really annoys me is in Reunion. Her greeting to Grizel still brings tears to my eyes, but I can't bear the way she talks about Len and Reg. And she's far too protective of her girls and dismissive of her boys. On the other hand, her conversation with Hilda in Two Sams really rings true. I don't think she is a butter-in like Mary-Lou, or even Len. Mary-Lou butts in because she's nosy, and Len because she thinks she should. As Ray says, Joey waits to be asked, and sometimes has to be persuaded - by Robin in Highland Twins and by the staff in Theodora, for example. And sometimes it's much against her will, as when poor Althea's parents abandon her without so much as a thought. Sometimes she needs shaking, and I do have a lot of sympathy with many of the anti-Joey drabbles [!], but on the whole I wouldn't be without her.

 

#27:  Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:01 pm

Susan wrote:
I feek sorry for her children! Her sons whom she doesn't seem to see once they are eight years old and her daughters are sent to boarding school but next door to where they live. Surely the point of going to boarding school was to go away from home? I would have been one unhappy teenager if my mum had suggested taking someone else on holiday with us - mind you we were lucky to get ten days away never mind most of the summer holidays!
The boys in particular. They're away all term, in a different country, then when they come home there's always a horde of other kids (10 siblings, about 5 wards, plus whoever else is around), and that's the *only* time they're with their parents.
Susan wrote:
It was as though there was something missing in her live and she had to fill it.
There's a good quote in New House:
Quote:
I shall just stay at home, and help with the children, and practise my singing, and so on. It does not appeal to me after the very full life we lead here - it seem so - little, somehow. It's just doing little bits of things that aren't important',
I think that summs up her objections to growing up and leaving school. At school, she has a full life, mentally, physically, and emotionally stimulating. She's looked up to as a leader, she fills a useful role that (as she was told repeatedly before becoming headgirl) no one else could do, she has influence adn is respected, and has a group of good friends to spend her time with. Then she goes back to being under Madge and Jem (particularly Jem's) authority, treated as if she were still a school girl, but without any of the things she liked from school. You could hypothesise that her transition from school to real life left her feeling that school = exciting, fulfilling life, home = dull and not particularly needed, reinforced by her further experiences with the school (in Returns, and New) begin much more interesting than her home life. I certainly wouldn't want to be subject to Jem's doctorally magnificant authority. Then she has the flight from the Nazis, engagement, marriage, uprooting and movnig twice within a year due to various threats, the birth of triplets, and thinking she had lost Jack. That's enough stress to push someone with a nervous disposition into a near breakdown, pushing more towards the school as a constant source of reassurance and familiarity in her life. That could leave her fixated on the school as a security blanket of sorts. Plus, there's the ego boost of being treated as an intelligent, perceptive adult when the other major people in her life (Jack, Jem, Madge) tend to protect and coddle her, and are very much in the older and wiser category. (A side effect of 6 years of grad school is the ability to generate a hypothesis in your sleep - students beware! HelpMe) It's only when reading the books in one go that Joey irritates. In individual books she's generally not that bad, it's only when you realize she's like that ALL THE TIME!. And if you read the books badly out of sequence, she's a good time keeper. The first books I read (as a kid) were Tom, Exploits, Feud, Excitementes, At War and United, in about that order. The age of Joey and her kids acted as a very useful guide.

 

#28:  Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: Devon PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:08 am

I can't say I was ever that keen on Joey, as an adult or a child, but I think that the thing that used to bug me immensely was her total inability to keep her hot little hands off other people's names! I have quite an unusual four syllable name and absolutely HATE it being shortened, especially be people I don't know very well - I have one abbreviation and only let my family use it! Therefore if this overbearing woman announced she had given me a new one, I would be awfully tempted to clout her! Who made Joey the Queen of Names anyway?

 

#29:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:30 pm

While Joey is not my favourite character, I don't think she is as bad as we often paint her. As a schoolgirl she is portrayed quite well, as a strong personality, a leader, but also with a sense of mischief and occasional teenage sulks, very realistic. I find however that while as headgirl she is fine, and she does help with Joyce Linton, there is nothing special about her, certainly not to make her better than Mary-Lou, Len, or some of the others, Elizabeth Arnett for instance. I have never worked out why she is always 'the best headgirl ever'. Is this actually used in a specific instance, or does she just appear onm lists of 'best HG ever' along with otghers, I can't recall offhand. I found her portrayal during the war fine, and there was little interference with the school apart from when she was asked and as Madge's sister and close friend to some of the staff. I think some of her vivists to the school may be seen as just that, visiting friends and we all do that occasionaly. I always thought it a bit rough on the other girls though that Robin and Daisy got to see Joey so much when most of the others didn't see their relatives during the term at all...or not that we hear about. That is actually one of the problems, we hear about Joey et al as they are written to be central characters and important and therefore EBD tells us what they are doing while she doesn't tell us every detail about some of the other people in the locality. I did find Joey's move to Carnbach a bit incredulous. In the swiss books, well, firstly I'm not as sure she visited the school half as much as we make out. There are often comments from staff when she does come that they have missed her, not seen her since the beginning of term etc etc...so maybe she wasn't there every night, and maybe she was welcome. Joey as problem solver, it seems to be the school as much as Joey here, they ring her and ask advice which always seems to take the lusture off Miss Annersley a little, and Joey is even called in to speak to girls when Miss Annersley hasn't managed to get through to them (gasps in shock). Whilst I'd prefer the school not to have to call her in, it does open up the books a little and stop it being totally insular within the school, and maybe it was partly to retain a 'family' feeling when the school grew larger? I can see why we growl and slap Joey so much, but I can also see that there are grounds for 'rehabilitating' her. The hardest thing is her treatment of her boys, that I find hard to swallow...how does it fit into the treatment of boys during EBD's time period anyone?? I hope Jack at least was able to spend some time with the boys and we just don't hear asbout it cos EBD was writing for girls. Her emotional blackmail of Mary-Lou is also a difficult issue, but I think there we have to see that Joey thought she was doing the right thing in not only helping Jessica, but taking Mary-Lou's mind off her Gran (OK, not the right solution, but the 'stiff upper lip' solution) and also in teaching Mary-Lou to do what Joey saw as duty and the 'moral' way to act. So, is someone going to write a biog of Joey drabble that addresses all these things we are saying and makes us all like her?

 

#30:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:07 pm

I have a Joey drabble working on me, but am not sure it addresses all those points Carolyn. I like Joey. I think as a school girl she is quite fun, but also (most of the time) mature for her age, although maybe that was a sign of the times then. I can't help wondering if a lot of her 'delicacy' and tendency to chest problems would have been solved if she had access to a good inhaler! Laughing She seems to me to show the symptoms of an asthmatic - which it would be natural for her to grow out of and explain why no-one later worries about her going from the school to home in pouring rain/a blizzard, when previously just to stand at an open door in cold weather would bring on breathing difficulties. Obviously she was overloaded with talents - but at least that's balanced in part by her not being pretty/beautiful. She does have some faults as well. It's the word of mouth thing from the girls that got her the reputation of being 'the best headgirl we ever had' and as that got passed down, those had been at school under her headgirlship were no longer there to say 'actually so and so is an even better headgirl than Jo' if that happened. I think as she gets older, Joey and the school have a symbiotic relationship - she needs the companionship of the staff there - it sounds like the school and Freudesheim are at one end of the platz and any other buildings are at the other, so they are her near neighbours as well as friends. In some books the staff lament that Jo is not around to help with such and such a situation or girl, but never seem to realise 'hey we managed to deal with it on our own last time, let's see what we can do before we go running to Jo.' I think it's a shame that Jo's increased involvement in dealing with girls etc is partly as a replacement for Madge - she gets more and more lost as the series goes on and that's a real shame. It would be nice to see Jo going to Madge for guidance now and then (maybe about her own children). Anyway, that's my end-of-day muddled waffle. Liz

 

#31:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:21 pm

RE the Joey and stealing Hilda's thunder type issue, the one incident on that that never fails to annoy me is the one in Does It Again,when Hilda asks Joey to help her with Prunella because she can't 'see through her.' Joey of course does it, surpassing the Head's own reasoning. Now, I find this highly irritating AND totally unrealistic. Hilda is at least fourteen years older than Joey she has been a teacher since Joey herself was a kid, and Headmistress (by the time of speaking) for over ten years. And she can't see through Prunella's not over-complicated problem? PUH-LEEASE!!!!

 

#32:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:08 pm

Ah but Joey was EBD's favorite character. Now if I'd written that scene... Wink

 

#33:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:15 pm

Is that a PlotBunny biting Lesley??? Laughing

 

#34:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:26 pm

Really hard, Carolyn! Rolling Eyes (Damn things are like mosquitoes! Laughing )

 

#35:  Author: Carolyn P, Location: Lancaster, England PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:40 pm

Look forward to seeing the results! Very Happy

 

#36:  Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:06 am

Like so many others who read the books early in life, it was Joey the school girl who I wanted to be. She had everything. She even had dark hair (naturally being a fair haired child, I wanted dark hair). She was clever and fun and well liked. She went to this marvellous school in Austria in the mountains. I’d only seen pictures of real mountains but they sounded exciting and exotic. She had fantastic adventures and SHE HAD A DOG something my parents would never allow. I had an imaginary German Shepherd! I was very envious when the Robin appeared on the scene and she had a baby sister.I identified with her in lots of ways too. She was to all intents and purposes a singleton and so was I. She was long and lanky and untidy and so was I. She had health problems and so did I. She was never going to get married and neither was I.Like a lot of other CS fans, her knowledge of languages spurred me to learn languages.I thought her marriage to Jack was lovely. They weren’t ‘sloppy’ and romantic (couldn’t stand sentimentality). In my innocence I thought having triplets would be the perfect way to start a family.I think it is only in the Swiss books that she (along with a lot of other things in the books) became ridiculous. Even the Head of a Sanatorium couldn’t be earning enough to buy a pension and comfortably support that size family with 2 live in staff. I know Joey was a successful author but she’d have to have been a J K Rowling to make up the difference they would have needed. I really couldn’t stand the way the children became an amorphous mass. When did they get any quality time with their mother. That said, I still have a soft spot for her. She and George from Enid Blyton’s Adventure series and Peter of the Lone Pine Club were my heroines from childhood and I still think of them fondly.

 

#37:  Author: Dreaming Marianne, Location: Devon PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:42 pm

Didn't someone recently do a breakdown of the Maynard/Bettany/Russell fortune? I must have been terribly time-consuming but was brilliantly done (thank you whoever did it!) but it would answer this question rather well. Incidently why doesn't whoever did it submit it to FOCS, as I bet they would love it for inclusion in one of the magazines?

 

#38:  Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:16 pm

Joey frequenty states that "the girls haven't cost us us anything so far, and Steven has his scholarship...". I'm not sure I understand the logic of the neices of the founder automatically gaining free places at the school (though it would be reasonable for Madges children) but that would ahve taken a certain amount off their expendirtures. They have a lot of shares in the CS as well, once it becomes a PLC, so that would help, and possibly other stock investments? Jem does comment in Exile that "...all our investments have been changed for safe ones...", so they obviously had some background money. A family owning the type of house that Pretty Maids seems to be - remember it was mooted as a home for the CS, and was eventually turned over to the National Trust - don't sound too hard up. Jack inherited all of that in the end.

 

#39:  Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:29 pm

You're right, Miriam. I wasn't factorring in the family money they must have intherited. As this was after the 'Depession' in both Uk and US, to have inherited money must have been a great cushion. I'd missed the reference to Pretty Maids as being suitable for a school Shocked

 

#40:  Author: claire, Location: South Wales PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:49 am

Miriam wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the logic of the neices of the founder automatically gaining free places at the school (though it would be reasonable for Madges children) but that would ahve taken a certain amount off their expendirtures.
Jo and Jack are shareholders in the CS, so maybe that accounts for it although the profits of the CS must take a nose dive with all the free places if thats the case as the Bettany girls would get them as well (and I think it's mentioned that most of the staff have shares so when their daughters grow up - free places there too

 

#41:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:19 pm

claire wrote:
Miriam wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the logic of the neices of the founder automatically gaining free places at the school (though it would be reasonable for Madges children) but that would ahve taken a certain amount off their expendirtures.
Jo and Jack are shareholders in the CS, so maybe that accounts for it although the profits of the CS must take a nose dive with all the free places if thats the case as the Bettany girls would get them as well (and I think it's mentioned that most of the staff have shares so when their daughters grow up - free places there too
Not necessarily, Claire - you're assuming that they all go at once. 1) Hilda, Nell, Jeanne and Rosalie all have shares - and as of the end of the series, none of them had shown the slightest desire to get married, much less have children! 2) From the Maynards, there's only (maximum) five places taken at any one time, the Bettanys have four and the Russells have three. That's twelve places out of 200 plus. Not a huge number, all told. And the other thing is, that twelve never happens. Bride and Peggy have both left the school before Felix and Felicity start Sybil, Josette, Maeve, and Felix have left before Cecil starts Len, Con and Margot have left before Phil (and presumably Daphne and Geoff) starts and Ailie would be leaving not after. And in the real world of private schools the staff DO get a certain amount of help in terms of places for their children - I went to school with the daughters of three members of staff, one of whom (staff not daughter) actually said (when asked by one of the nosier members of my form) that she got a reduction in fees. Ray *would agree if they all went at once it would break the bank, though*

 

#42:  Author: claire, Location: South Wales PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:06 pm

A reduction I could understand but free seems a little excessive to me (and I presumed that Jo's wards came in for it as well - although Ruey is paid for by her father to start at least so maybe that would carry on with the money he left the Maynards to care for him) Also it makes sense for staff working at a school to get a reduction as it is an incentive for them to stay at the school - but I would assume that it is the FEES that are paid, that the parent is just paying the part that goes to towards their keep. Actually thinking about it no wonder Jo sends her girls to boarding school when she lives next door - if they don't cost them anything while at school (though she does mention they buy uniforms for them) then it works out cheaper for them as they haven't got to buy food for them during the term

 

#43:  Author: Lisa_T, Location: Belfast PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:04 pm

I think she needs to pay for any extras too. I get the impression that it really is just the basic boarding and tuition fees that she gets free. I wonder how expeditions were factored in? They must have cost a pretty penny when you see that the Head is always treating the entire crowd to either a scrumptious tea or a four course meal in some swanky restaurant- although I can understand that some of those were essentially 'educational' in order to expose the girls to different culinary traditions. However, they do seem to get an opportunity to choose! When I went to Florence on a school trip, our 'paid' for food was boring, monotonous, and weird. When we begged to go somewhere where we could choose- and pay- we found that the only restaurant that could feed a party the size of ours on the amount of money we could afford per head could only offer pizza and chips. We were NOT happy!

 

#44:  Author: MissPrint, Location: Edinburgh PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:47 am

My best friend at school was the housemaster's daughter and she told me that she and her sisters all got their education for one tenth of what we paid. I don't know if this applied to all staff. Her mum was the matron of the main house. When it came to expeditions, their Dad was often one of the leaders, and took along at least one daughter free. He tended to go on those educational cruises with them during the summer. I never went, as I had no desire to be cooped up with hundreds of schoolchildren on a cruise liner, and it cost too much. They also got a further discount because anyone who had more than three daughters at the school got a reduction. Their youngest must have cost them just about nothing to educate. Or equip, they took their hockey sticks and tennis racquets out of the lost property.

 

#45:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:19 am

The best perk at my university -- or what would be the best perk if I had children -- is free tuition here or somewhere on the "exchange list" for qualified dependents. One thing I really like about this place, is that the benefit goes beyond faculty, to those even less able to deal with astronomical education costs. I hope our cleaning person's seven children all make it!

 

#46:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:58 pm

I'm resurrecting this topic because I'm currently reading School At and it's got me thinking. Is Joey's transformation from the girl in School At to the woman in the Swiss books believable in the slightest. I know she's not the most believable character in the later books anyway, but can you see the girl in School At, or even the sulky girl at the start of And Jo, when she's a bit older, turning into Mrs. Maynard, mother of eleven and general genius at everything?

 

#47:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:43 pm

I think that's what a lot af people find difficult to accept, Sarah. I like Joey when she is a school girl, I even like her her when she is first married.She has a lot of very wonderful qualities - her empathy and understanding, great gifts etc. But I feel that, were i to know her now, she would be someone I would actively avoid - she cannot allow anyone to have their moment of glory without immediately proving that she is better, has done better, or would do better.

I feel the school girl was believable, the woman in the Swiss years was EBD writing of a perfect woman -someone that she hoped she could be. I've said it before, Joey,in the later book, could only be taken in small doses.

 

#48:  Author: jennifer, Location: Sunny California PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:48 pm

Sarah_L wrote:
I'm resurrecting this topic because I'm currently reading School At and it's got me thinking. Is Joey's transformation from the girl in School At to the woman in the Swiss books believable in the slightest. I know she's not the most believable character in the later books anyway, but can you see the girl in School At, or even the sulky girl at the start of And Jo, when she's a bit older, turning into Mrs. Maynard, mother of eleven and general genius at everything?



I think there's some re-interpretation when everyone thinks back to of Jo as a child. Mary-Lou and Len are constantly compared to Jo in their tendencies to take responsibilities, butt in, and have a deep understanding of other girls, and you don't see much of that when Joey actually *is* a child.

She does tend to butt in, but only if there's serious danger invovled (kidnappings, skating on thin ice, climbing mountains, rescuing puppies), and shows little desire to reform anyone.

She doesn't actually display all that much empathy, particularly towards less pleasant girls. If you look at the list of problem cases when Joey is in school:

She feuds with Grizel regularly, She doesn't do anything for C ornelia or Thekla (where Mary-Lou or Len would have butted in, or been asked to reform). She dislikes Elaine. She actively dislikes Joyce Linton from the very beginning, and she only steps in when Gillian requests it. She has a similar reaction to Eustacia, to the point where she moans to Madge about having to spend half-term with the girl. She has a silly feud with Anne Seymour in her last term, because Anne tells her to shut up when she's trying to study. She's regularly described as 'the best head girl we ever had', but doesn't really live up to that when she is headgirl.

It's only after she leaves school that she becomes the official butter in, reformer, and source of all wisdom about young girls, and the longer that goes on, the less realistic she becomes, and the more unhealthy her fixation with the school becomes.


My view on this is that Joey really did hate leaving school. She went from being a respected leader of her peers, with close friends, a full life with ample social opportunities and physical and mental activity, where she made a real, necessary contribution, to providing assistant childcare for her sister and brother's children and living under Jem's authority (which can't have been all that much fun). The most interesting episodes in her life are when she is reunited with the school, and her writing concentrated on re-telling (and reliving) school experiences. In 'Jo Returns' the school needs her, but Madge doesn't. She then goes through some extremely traumatic events, followed by relocating, marrying and having three children - that's got to be stressful. Jack's away a lot, both as a doctor, and when he's in the war. I think she fixated on the school as her source of safety and comfort, and the environment where she was most respected and needed, particulaly when the staff and prefects regularly ask her for advice, and the students fawn over "Miss Josephine Bettany" .

 

#49:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:48 pm

I've been thinking a lot about how Joey the girl could turn into Joey the woman, and it really doesn't make sense. I can see Joey the girl turning into Mollie Bettany as portrayed in Bride, but I really can't put my finger on the point where she began to be so perfect.

 

#50:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:49 pm

I have to agree with you Jennifer and that was very interesting to read as well. Very Happy

As for when Jo transformed. The lack of books that cover Jo in her twenties I feel plays a part in this. We go from seeing Jo as a young mother with her friends in Jo To the Rescue, to an older Jo in Three Go, which begins to set a pattern for the Swiss Jo. Also we loose a year later on when Jo is is Canada.

Jo is quite reasonable in the St Briavels books, but the fact she had to move to be close to the school, nowadays sounds warning bells to me about her desire to be too close to the school.

Sadly, as other things become more repetitive in the later books, so does Joey the perfect.

 

#51:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:40 pm

Absolutely agree, Jennifer.

I was rereading New House the other day and came across a passage I don't remember seeing before (and one which I'm about 90% convinced is not in the pb):

What Frieda knew, though she had no intention of saying it, was that Jo was feeling rather unhappy about it. As she had truly said, for most of the others there was definite work to do. Frieda herself was to go up to the Sonnalpe to help her sister-in-law, once Gisela Marani; for a little sister had come for small Natalie only a week ago, and Gisela’s hands would be full. Marie had her betrothal coming; Simone was going to the Sorbonne at the next semestre; Carla, Vanna, Sophie, Eva von Heiling, all had something awaiting them. Carla was to take up signing and go to Florence to study; Vanna, the only child of an invalid mother, would have plenty to do at home; Sophie had two small sister to whom she was to act governess for the next two years; and Eva had announced her intention of going to England to train as a kennel-maid, thus turning to advantage her undoubted influence over animals. Only Jo would find little to do. Her sister had an excellent nurse, and was engaging a young girl to take charge of the Bettany twins until they were old enough for school. There was her singing, of course; and her writing. But Jo felt that she would have no settled duties, and after the full, busy life she had led at school, she found the prospect very dull.

(I think one or two sentences appeared here, but I thought the whole passage was useful.)

I think that summarises very much the problem with Joey. She was a big fish in a very small point when she was at school and when she leaves, she loses this. Her reappearances in the first few books after she goes are by chance - she comes to see the school as Madge cannot, meaning to stay for a few days, and the illness at Die Rosen means she has to stay, and then she is only coming to see Bill and falls into the Middles 'rag'. It would have been interesting if EBD had written more books in this era to see if/how Jo would have appeared. Would she have written a book focusing on the Annexe? Clearly India would have been done to showcase Joey. I suspect we would have all been very sick of Joey 'just happening' to get stuck at the school by the time Exile arrived.

I think Joey's role in the later books is an extension of this. Putting aside all of EBD's clear fondness for the character, I think this is the reason why Joey stays attached the school. Particularly once the school moves to Switzerland, there really isn't anyone else for her to befriend, apart from those at the San, and I imagine Jack wouldn't have been too willing to expose her to the germs and whatnot there. That really only leaves the school at the parents of girls who happen to be there. Look how quickly she latches on to Mrs Everett and Mrs Gardiner in Wins The Trick.

I get rather tired of Jo's interference, but I think she needed it as a form of self-affirmation. I suspect the school rather humoured her in the later period, letting her help instead of actually going to her for help. It's reasonable to make a comparison to Mlle Lepattre. For the time after she is appointed acting Head (I don't think she is ever actual Head - great for the self-esteem, that!), she is constantly up at the Sonnalpe whenever anything exciting happens, to the point where one wonders just how she got up there in bad weather. Compare that to Miss Annersley, who rarely went over to get advice from Joey.

I'm another who likes Joey best as a young adult, particularly after she leaves school and in the early war books. Her popularity in the school then is quite reasonable as a number of the older girls could actually remember when she had been Head Girl or even just a Senior.

 

#52:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:22 pm

Thanks Jennifer and KB, that was very interesting, and something that you can actually see happening. Perhaps the time Jo starts to lose her realism is when the Maynards had to move close to the School after it had moved to the Island - yes it was due to the foundations (very spurious plot device there) but what was the need to be close to the School? The move was supposed to be only temporary, and the Maynards had a perfectly good house they could have used - the Round House was standing empty at the time, with the Russells in Canada!

 

#53:  Author: Kirstie, Location: Ayrshire PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:07 am

I always thought that the reason Jo and her family lived close to the school was because Jack worked at the san. Was the whole reason for their move to Switzerland not because Jack was to be head of the san there? Reading the books when I was younger I accepted this as the norm.The books do constantly go on about the close links to the san.I read the books all out of order and can't think why I did not question Jo always being so near the school before. It does seen less plausible now as does Jo's transformation to little Miss Perfect. I also agree that EBD did imply after Jo left school that she was at a loose end compared to the others.Although why so many of the rest went home to help in the family but not Jo is rather strange in retrospect. This makes her having such a large family seem even more like getting one over everyone else as she obviously did not want to help Madge at home with all her kids etc. or maybe Madge did not want her to after all she had looked after Jo from an early age herself.
However irratating Jo becomes she is one of my favourite characters although in the later books I was relieved she was not my mother. To have loads of siblings is bad enough but her uncanny ability to aquire other orphans and wards beggers belief. I have three sisters and at times that has been three to many.They know what I mean. Did EBD long to have had a large family herself?

 

#54:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:54 am

Kirstie wrote:
I also agree that EBD did imply after Jo left school that she was at a loose end compared to the others.Although why so many of the rest went home to help in the family but not Jo is rather strange in retrospect.


It is rather odd that Jo uses the many children at Die Rosen as her excuse for not going to Belsornia with Elisaveta, only to have so little to do that she can pop in and out whenever she likes it. Seeing her in the court would have been rather interesting. I wonder how her writing would have gone in that circumstance...

Quote:
Did EBD long to have had a large family herself?


I don't know if there is any proof of this. EBD's half-brother died when he was very young (most people in EBD's life after he died never even knew he existed!) so perhaps this was her attempt to make up for that loss in some way.

 

#55:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:48 pm

Thank you very much KB and Jennifer. I wonder if EBD read through her books now whether she would come up with the same analysis of Joey.

I'm positive that paragraph isn't in the PB of New House KB, I've only read paperbacks and apart from a mention of Gisela's new son in one of the war books, I don't remember reading about any children other than Natalie. It's also interesting hearing the plans of the others. I like Eva's ambition, it's nice to see something following on from her talent as pets' prefect.

 

#56:  Author: Kirstie, Location: Ayrshire PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:03 am

I could not remember why Jo did not go to Belsornia to be a lady-in-waiting.

 

#57:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:41 pm

Who was it who decided Jo couldn't go to Belsornia because of all the children at Die Rosen? If it was Jo's decision, Madge should have tried to change her mind. Madge had plenty of help in Die Rosen and didn't need Jo too.

 

#58:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:20 pm

It was originally discussed in and Jo when there was fear that the Robin was developing TB. After that, Mollie and Dick came home and left Peggy and Rix, so Jo started saying that, with so many children, she would have to stay home. Then Sybil was born, and after that Dick and Mollie returned again, leaving Bride and Jackie in the Die Rosen nursery (a total of six children, including David).

I don't think Madge ever really says it for sure, but particularly after Jo's book is accepted, so is the fact that the plan for her to be lady-in-waiting is over.

 

#59:  Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:00 pm

I always felt that the *too many children so Jo will be needed* was always a bit of a polite way of saying *Jo and Madge (and possibly even Elisaveta) don't think this is the right/sensible thing to do anymore*

After all what seemed like a really good idea when they were kids, may not have been such a good idea when viewed from a more adult perspective

 

#60:  Author: Ellie, Location: Lincolnshire PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:35 pm

Dawn wrote:
I always felt that the *too many children so Jo will be needed* was always a bit of a polite way of saying *Jo and Madge (and possibly even Elisaveta) don't think this is the right/sensible thing to do anymore*

After all what seemed like a really good idea when they were kids, may not have been such a good idea when viewed from a more adult perspective


That makes sense, Dawn. On one hand she could be a lady=in=waiting, with possibly very little time to herself, on the other, she could stay at the Sonnalpe and continue to practise her craft as a writer - guess I know which I would choose.

 

#61:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:50 pm

Dawn wrote:
I always felt that the *too many children so Jo will be needed* was always a bit of a polite way of saying *Jo and Madge (and possibly even Elisaveta) don't think this is the right/sensible thing to do anymore*

After all what seemed like a really good idea when they were kids, may not have been such a good idea when viewed from a more adult perspective


Exactly. That makes perfect sense. I mean.. .can *anyone* imagine Joey as a lady-in-waiting?!

 

#62:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:46 pm

Perhaps lady-in-waiting was a sublte way of hiring Joey as a bodyguard... Laughing

 

#63:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:06 pm

Wasnt there something originally that she would go as a LIW when she was 16, ie finish school early, but Madge and Jem decide against this in Eustacia and that she should have an extra year at school.

Im afraid I think EBD realised there was no way the series would survive with Jo so far away from the action.

 

#64:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:38 pm

You know how you can make really great friends in life (say at school) then you don't see themmuch when you go uni or something and whilst you INTEND to stay friends - it's never quite the same? In Princess I always got the impression that Jo and Elisaveta were bestest friends but when E comes back for camp, she seems to be spending more time with the slightly younger ones, the Quintet - Elsie and that. maybe it's just my perception.. her friendship with Jo diminished as they were apart and it was a convenient excuse that there were too many babies at Die Rosen??

 

#65:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:26 am

I have had a bunny nibbling for a while about what might have happened if Jo had gone to be a Lady in Waiting to Elisaveta. The problem is it keeps being taken over by RL. Look out for it in a Drabble House near you very soon.

 

#66:  Author: Kat, Location: Swansea PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:25 pm

Susan wrote:
Look out for it in a Drabble House near you very soon.


Woohoo! Can't wait Susan! Have often wondered what life would have been like for Joey if she had gone to E's as LIW, so can't wait to read your version Very Happy

 

#67:  Author: Dawn, Location: Leeds, West Yorks PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:53 pm

aitchemelle wrote:
You know how you can make really great friends in life (say at school) then you don't see themmuch when you go uni or something and whilst you INTEND to stay friends - it's never quite the same? In Princess I always got the impression that Jo and Elisaveta were bestest friends but when E comes back for camp, she seems to be spending more time with the slightly younger ones, the Quintet - Elsie and that. maybe it's just my perception.. her friendship with Jo diminished as they were apart and it was a convenient excuse that there were too many babies at Die Rosen??


I'd never thought of that (and I've re read camp recently Embarassed ) but it's very true

 

#68:  Author: Lucy, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:48 pm

I've never read this discussion before, but after spending most of the morning catching up on it I just thought I'd add a couple of things:

- When I was a child reading the books I always thought I'd have loved to go to the CS but wasn't that sure about going to boarding school - I felt that I'd have found having someone like Joey living next to the school who would step in as needed would have being very reassuring.

Sometimes as a teenager you need a parent to discuss things you wouldn't want to discuss with your school teachers.

- As I've grown older one of the things I've always liked about the CS is that it is a continuing series where people age. Lots of old girls come back to teach, others their children go to the school. Living next door Joey is a great link and provides, I think, a great plot device. We often find out things in discussions with Joey that move the story forward, i.e. in Ted, where Joey discusses Ted joining the school. She becomes involved because Carty, an old teacher, asks her too.

- Joey leads a very sheltered life, no wonder she seems to wrap her children in cotton wool. Although the characters in the CS age, there surroundings don't really. I always think of older Joey and the later books as happening in a time period of the early fifties, time seems to stop in CS world.

- EBD focused on the triplets and therefore Joey did, I'm sure she was an equally good mother to the rest, we just don't see those conversations. I have a feeling that if the serious had continued we would have seen the conversations she had with felicity, cecil etc, as they became a bigger focus in the serious - then she would prob be accused of transfering her favourtism and forgetting about the triplets!!

I know I'm different from the majority in liking Joey in the Swiss books - they were the first I read as a child and I thought she was wonderful. At the end of the day, although I see more faults as I reread (and reread agin) the books, they were written as children's books and I think my reaction to Joey as a child is the reaction EBD was aiming for, so in that way, for me, she is a wonderful character.

By far the longest post for a normally quite quiet member of the board - I obviously must feel quite strongly bout Joey Embarassed

 

#69:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:23 pm

i've been reading the war books lately and it sometimes seems to me that Joey just has too much going on at this time - too many friends, children, "adopted" kids, her books etc etc. theres a point in exile where she packs daisy and robin off to board for a few days because she wants to spend time with Frieda... just smacks of someone who, perhaps, has quite a short attention span and just flits from one exciting thing to another. maybe we dont get to see much of her attention with the younger children because, er she;s seen all the exciting bits with the trips and now its not as much fun! just a thought......

 

#70:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:33 pm

Quote:
theres a point in exile where she packs daisy and robin off to board for a few days because she wants to spend time with Frieda


Um... Can you provide the actual book quotes for that? I don't remember seeing that, or anything that could be paraphrased into that, in Exile.

Ray *puzzled*

 

#71:  Author: Lucy, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:48 pm

I thought it was coz Frieda needed some rest after finally getting to Joey's? Maybe I was wrong though.

 

#72:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:59 pm

i will accept i'm wrong as i'm sure you guys know the books better than me. having just read exile, war and highland twins i was sure there was a part in one of them where joey asks or sends daisy and rob to board and it was something to do with frieda going somewhere or coming from something.
maybe i am going mad
or i dreamt it?

 

#73:  Author: Lucy, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:12 pm

I can definately remember Daisy and Rob being sent to board coz of Frieda. I've got the HB at home so will check tonight and find the quote.

I'm sympathetic to Joey so may have just interpreted it as them being sent away to give Frieda a chance to recover, whereas others interpret that she sent them away so she could catch up with Frieda. Interesting to see how different memories react to the same piece of writing!!

Curious to find out now - just a shame I have to work!! Very Happy

 

#74:  Author: Vikki, Location: Sitting on an iceberg, freezing to death!!! PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:13 pm

I THINK there's a bit in War/Goes to it, where this happens, and I THINK it was to do with Frieda being interned...

 

#75:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:18 pm

I think you *might* be talking about something that happens in War/Goes To It, to do with Frieda's internment - or you might be talking about Elisaveta's arrival in Lavender. Both instances are (irrc) to do with the visitor being in need of rest having arrived at Joey's and Daisy being something of a chatter box isn't going to be exactly restful.

(NB If you're reading the paperbacks, the Elisaveta arrival won't apply because that was one of the things cut from Lavender.)

I'll recheck my copies of both and see if I can find quotes when I get home.

Ray *doesn't think you're going mad*

ETA Vikki beat me to it...

 

#76:  Author: Caroline, Location: Manchester PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:20 pm

aitchemelle wrote:
i will accept i'm wrong as i'm sure you guys know the books better than me. having just read exile, war and highland twins i was sure there was a part in one of them where joey asks or sends daisy and rob to board and it was something to do with frieda going somewhere or coming from something. maybe i am going mad or i dreamt it?


No, you're not going mad - it's when Frieda is about to be interned in Goes To It Ch11. Jo sends the girls up to school she and Frieda can spend Frieda's last few days together:

Quote:
Daisy had fallen on her, and was hugging her as if they had been parted for three months instead of only three days. Joey had sent Daisy and Robin up to school to board from the Monday, since she wanted Frieda’s last days to herself.


Not sure what I think about this, really. Does seem a bit selfish of Jo, but then keeping Daisy and Robin as day girls (and letting them in for a six mile round trip everyday) rather than boarders always seemed a tad selfish to me anyway.

I love young and young adult Joey, BTW. She seems to have a decent mix of flaws and talents, and everyone recognises those flaws exist. Later, we the readers can still see the flaws but EBD (and the school and Madge &etc.) apparently cannot.

Caroline.

 

#77:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:28 pm

WOW I know I can be opinionated but didn't mean to set off a storm...
It was def somewhere in pbs of exile, war or highland - i have to look at transcripts for lavender) but i think i was just wondering what people thought about joey's almost search to be in the middle of the excitement.

Quote:
keeping Daisy and Robin as day girls (and letting them in for a six mile round trip everyday) rather than boarders always seemed a tad selfish to me anyway.


I completely agree with this but then if they wanted to be close to her it's fair enough... EBD always (prepares to be corrected) wrote as if Joey wanted them with her whether they wanted to or not.

I find it really strange because I did love joey, i wanted to be her and have 11 (or 15 depending what you've read!) children. Only coming on here (and growing up a little) makes me query her a little!

hope this makes sense..... and thank you Caroline for finding the quote. Very Happy

 

#78:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:37 pm

Interesting quote.

It does make sense that in the situation of Frieda returning form the Isle of Man or Elisaveta turning up suddenly, both whom needed rest, that Joey might ask them to board for the sake of some peace for her guests. Though I cant see a nearly 18 year old Robin, being noisy........(I will pass that off as Joey/EBD being fair, Daisy, was noisy and had to go, so Robin should too)

However, taken more generally, it does show Joey in a careless light, choosing when the mood takes her to have Rob and Daisy as day girls, but then sending them to board at other times.

 

#79:  Author: Sarah_L, Location: Leeds PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:49 pm

Whilst that incident shows Joey being considerate to the feelings of Frieda/Elisaveta, it might not have been very pleasant for Daisy. She'd have been about sixteen at the time, and I'm sure she wasn't so insensitive as to make a lot of noise if she knew Elisaveta needed rest. If I were Daisy, I'd have been hurt that Joey didn't seem to trust me and was treating me like a child.

 

#80:  Author: Ray, Location: Bristol, England PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:52 pm

I think, so far as Robin is concerned, her being a boarder (particularly in the school year that starts in Highland Twins) is moot. She's in the special sixth and (I think it's in Highland Twins) she's only got lessons two or three days a week.

I think there is also an element of loneliness for Joey in Goes To It/Highland Twins, with Jack being away. With the triplets being so young, and Daisy and Rob being away full-time, she would have only had Anna for adult conversation a lot of the time - so I can understand her wanting a little bit more company.

Ray *throwing small change around*

 

#81:  Author: Ann, Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:32 pm

Ray wrote:
I think there is also an element of loneliness for Joey in Goes To It/Highland Twins, with Jack being away. With the triplets being so young, and Daisy and Rob being away full-time, she would have only had Anna for adult conversation a lot of the time - so I can understand her wanting a little bit more company.


I'm sure Joey says something to that effect in one of the books.

I could never understand why Daisy lived with Jo but Primula didn't. Given how much the two girls had gone through by that stage, it seems a bit cruel to separate them. (I'm sure we've had a thread about it in the past but I can't find/remember it)

 

#82:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:10 pm

Didn't Primula live with Jo in the holidays and board at school cos she was considered too delicate for the six mile round trip on bicycles.

 

#83:  Author: Sarah_K, Location: St Albans/Leicester PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:39 am

A slightly different tack but I've just read Ruey for the first time and actually found myself revising my view of Joey yet again. Before the board I always liked her, I was suspicious of how close she kept her children but I think I just put it down to being "old fashioned" and didn't mind it. Then when I started reading stuff on the CBB I started to have more problems with her treatment of her children and her boys in particular but in reading Ruey I saw how fiercely she actually defends Mike and is desperate not to send him off in disgrace.

Which all adds up to I think I need to wait till I've actually finished the rest of the series before I make my mind up or attempt any more drabbles!

 

#84:  Author: Sarah_G-G, Location: Sheffield (termtime), ? any other time! PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:05 pm

I've just read this topic all the way through and I want to think and read a little more before commenting too much but can I just ask, where did Daisy and Robin go when they went to the school to board for a few days/ weeks at various times? Did the school just keep beds free for them on the off chance Joey needed them gone for a bit? Maybe I'm being unfair but it seems a little thoughtless of Joey to just assume the school will be able to have them stay overnight whenever she feels like it. I know that she is friends with all the teachers and half the students but it sometimes seems to me that she takes that feeling a little too far, treating the school as a friend's house where she can send her kids for a bit when necessary. It's an odd question, I appreciate but I will try to come back later and post properly.

 

#85:  Author: LizB, Location: Oxon, England PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:10 pm

But then when it suited the school they kept them there overnight rather than sending them back to Joey - for example after Daisy was lost with Gwensi and Beth in At War/Goes to it.

Liz

 

#86:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:28 pm

Most of the time when that happens it is due to Jo or Frieda being 'busy' or just having had a baby or something. Rarely is it an unexpected one-off. However each school building seems to have empty rooms that are just set aside. The only time I can think of them being definitely used is in New when the Saints come and Miss Wilson uses the two empty dormitories at St. Clares. They could also sleep in the San or else in the room that, in most buildings, seems to lead off the Head's bedroom.

 

#87:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:21 pm

I'm reading the transcript of Lavender now and it talks about Joey going to India before she marries Jack...

Quote:
She’d been in India for the cold weather just before, and she got engaged to Dr Jack shortly after that. At least, it was about a year later
p 50 of Lavender transcript

have I missed this before because it's the first time I've had any access to hb text or what? I have no recollection of hearing about it before! Can someone enlighten me?
(please note that this time I managed to find the quote *bounces*)

Incidently I also wondered where Daisy and Rob would sleep but presumed that as the school was still very much growing in war/goes to it, there would be space to accomodate any new girls!

 

#88:  Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:24 pm

Jo goes to visit her brother in India. EBD did write a book about it, but the MSS got lost. Jo had been having problems with one of the doctors at the San who wouldn't take no for an answer.

 

#89:  Author: Ally, Location: Jack Maynard's Dressing Room!! PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:41 pm

The trip to India is also mentioned in a few other books. For example in Summer Term, as Erica Standish is the daughter of a friend Joey made whilst in India.

 

#90:  Author: aitchemelle, Location: West Sussex PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:50 pm

ooooh thank you! i feel very unworthy now! Embarassed
i've only read summer term once last year and so far in my re-read it hasnt been mentioned (in any paperbacks) only now with lavender it was!
Embarassed at forgetfulnizzleness

 

#91:  Author: claire, Location: South Wales PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:35 pm

Jo wrote a book called 'An adventure in India' which was meant to be a reference to CS girls in India (I suspect)
It was while in India Jo destroyed Mollie's version of Queechy by tearing out the illustrations

 

#92:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:38 pm

Claire, where did you get your title? I thought JMB's book about India was called Indian Holiday, as mentioned in Lavender.

 

#93:  Author: Guest,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:47 pm

Embarassed I have to admit that despite what you all think of Joey I actually like her all the way through the series. The only thing that irritate sme is the fact that she is suddenly talked of being the best head girlwhich is unfair when many of the early headgirls are very good. (i know this isn't a disscussion about Mary_lou but I do find her pretty annoying in a way which i don't find Joey).

 

#94:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:00 pm

I like Joey too. Smile I hate when she's evil in drabbles - she's not!!!

 

#95:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:35 am

Don't worry, Guest: You're not alone here. I'm an unregenerate Joey fan myself. For that matter, when I call someone a Mary-Lou, I still mean it as a compliment: someone who goes out of her way to be kind and helpful.... Confused

 

#96:  Author: RuthY, Location: Anyone's guess PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:54 pm

I'm the guest. I like Joey a lot at the start of the series and quite a bit right to the end but she can be a bit irritating in some of the later books.

Ruth

 

#97:  Author: Róisín, Location: Galway, Eire PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:05 pm

One of the things that irritates me about Joey is the way in the early books, that she is always sick. And I don’t really just mean about her naturally frail condition. If someone is to fall over and hurt themselves, or catch the disease etc, it is her, and she spends more time in bed suffering in the first books than I would like. Why can’t it be Simone or Marie in those sickbeds for once?!

I think this is part of the way in general that EBD pushes her onto us as the hero and central character, no matter what the occasion, in a slightly patronising way.

 

#98:  Author: Alison H, Location: Manchester PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:23 pm

I don't mind her in the early books but she gets on my nerves a bit in the later ones. If my mum had been interfering in school business all the time (OK, Joey was the sister of the owner, but even so) then I would have been seriously embarrassed: I can't understand why the triplets don't seem to mind!

 

#99:  Author: Róisín, Location: Galway, Eire PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:46 pm

Yes, the later books would have made a lot more sense to me if Joey had the official job of being the representative of the shareholders or something like that.

 

#100:  Author: delilah_siren, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:37 am

i guess EBD didn't feel that she needed that title. Like that might be the role she was playing, but she was the kind of person that didn't need the title to play the role.

 

#101:  Author: Róisín, Location: Galway, Eire PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:28 am

As a teacher, that would have irritated the bejesus out of me - some woman who was playing a role that wasn't hers officially.

 

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