Flora and Fiona McDonald
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#1: Flora and Fiona McDonald Author: Josie, Location: London PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:48 am

Please discuss the Highland Twins here. What do you think of them as characters? Does the whole 'second sight' thing work for you? Does EBD's version of a Highland twang grate on you? etc etc...

 

#2:  Author: Pat, Location: Doncaster PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:17 pm

I like the characters of the twins, they are well written as people. However, the accent does jar. I don't know how someone would actually show the correct accent in writing, but EBD's attempt makes it hard to read.
The second sight thing is simply a plot device, and it doesn't work for me at all.

 

#3:  Author: Nicci, Location: UK PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:45 pm

I like the twins, particularly in the scene where they meet the rest of their classmates. It's a delight to read about them, much as most of Elinor's descriptions of the juniors were in the early books.

I really loved their defiance of Matron! Although the whole 'pig sister' thing- surely Matron would have realised what they meant Confused Or was it more the followinggiggles that annoyed her?

I liked the second sight aspect, although since reading Pat's comment I've been thinking about it a lot more. I suppose it was a plot device and does rather stick out as an issue in CS world. What I did, however like, was the way that the second sight issue divided Hilda and Nell because of religious issues. That was very interesting, and I would have liked to read more about Hilda's struggle to decide between the well being of her pupil and her wish to give her friend some peace of mind.

 

#4:  Author: Rosie, Location: Huntingdonshire/Bangor PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:15 pm

I don't like the second sight part at all. Somehow, to me (obviously!), it makes everything a bit of a farce... I have the same issue with the water-divining in 'Pigeon Post' by Arthur Ransome. It makes me feel a bit cheated, as the book stops being REAL.
On the other hand, I really like the rest of the book: it is in my favourite period, and I like the stories about the Juniors and Middles as opposed to the boring Seniors!

 

#5:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:18 pm

I'm sure the 'second sight' thing was just EBD following a current trend in girls' books, as she does with Dommy Sci and Guides and other ideas.

 

#6:  Author: Rosie, Location: Huntingdonshire/Bangor PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:20 pm

Yes, but those are REAL things. (probably is a very good explanation, of course...)

 

#7:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:17 am

I like the twins and wished that they had had bigger roles in later books, but EBD seems to forget about them as quickly as she created them!
I actually like the Second Sight thing, never have had a problem with it. The accents do annoy me.
The characters EBD was creating at this stage were all very strong, and likeable.

 

#8:  Author: Susan, Location: Carlisle PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 11:43 am

I like Fora and Fiona though the accent does grate, but I do also wonder how else EBD could show that they spoke less than Oxbridge English. The second sight thing doesn't bother me at all though I think it is a bit of a stereotypical plot device, it doesn't spoil the story.

Fiona and Flora are portrayed well as shy girls who have never really mixed with people outside their own family. I like the way we see them learn to mix with their classmates and to see their opinion of the others.

 

#9:  Author: Joan the Dwarf, Location: Er, where am I? PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:36 pm

The second-sight thing always felt a bit silly until I got hold of the GGBP copy, rather than the pb I've had since whenever. One of the things that got chopped out in the pb is the atmosphere - it seems to me that EBD is trying to re-create some of the atmosphere of the Highlands and their legends. There's a dark quality to some of it, and the stories and descriptions of the twins help to create an atmosphere out-of-the-ordinary. Within this, the second-sight becomes much more natural, as it does in the Highland stories that EBD's trying to invoke.

This atmosphere also makes more sense of the twin's characters (especially Flora), along with the accent (however badly written) - it gives them the impression of being ever-so-slightly alien, not quite fitting in with the Chalet world. As such, being a deus ex machina in the plot is again more natural.

The big problem I have with HT (reflected in other EBD writings) is the attiude to grief and loss. You do not make someone's grief easier by encouraging denial. Yes, Miss A, I mean you and your Lazarus-raising story. Suppose Jack had drowned and was never recovered? Joey would have been crippled as long as she held out 'hope'. Blech.

 

#10:  Author: patmac, Location: Yorkshire England PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:29 pm

I didn't have a problem with the second sight bit, though on reflection, F & F were presumably brought in to the story as mystic celts just for that episode and the mysterious 'chart of Erisay' - presumably why they disappeared when all was resolved.

I agree with Joan, from today's perspective, that bottling up grief is harmful but, at that time, 'stiff upper lip' was considered a virtue.

Bearing in mind that 700,000 British men and women were killed in the first WW and 300,000 in WWII - and that is just serving in the armed forces, leaving aside civilian casualties - this must have been a survival thing. If everyone who should have stopped to grieve had done so, the whole nation would have been brought to a halt.

I expect this attitude persisted for a long while after the war.

The substitution of 'p' for 'b' just puzzled me. I didn't even realise that it denoted a Scottish soft 'b' - just thought it weird.

PS, don't quote me on the exact fatalities - I'm writing from memory!

 

#11:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:40 pm

patmac wrote:
I agree with Joan, from today's perspective, that bottling up grief is harmful but, at that time, 'stiff upper lip' was considered a virtue.


EBD's own opinion on this clearly changes by the time of the death of OOAO's mother in Reunion. Joey talks until Mary-Lou finally cries for her mother.

And the 'death' of Jack brings in Jo's most annoying attitude to me - that she suffered more than anyone else, that Simone can't even mention Andre's absence in Rescue without being reminded about what Jo suffered. When I wrote the short story about Evadne's loss (last FOCS mag of 2004), I nearly had her crying her eyes out elsewhere because I really didn't know if Jo could be completely selfless in that sort of situation.

 

#12:  Author: Kathy_S, Location: midwestern US PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 4:04 pm

In terms of the accent, I wonder if replacing b with p wasn't a standard way of writing dialect from the twins' home territory. Here, from Jane Duncan, My Friend, My Father, 1966 :
Quote:
Tom had a complete mastery of the soft Hebridean accent of our learned minister.
'... I am speaking to you this Lord's day apout the veeshion of Kod, the clorious veeshion to which our eyes, that see so much of lesser theengs, are so often plind, plind as the pat that flies in the dark off the night.....'

Note that this sort of accent was viewed as different enough to mimic in the highland village in which Duncan's Reachfar series was set, and which was based on the author's own childhood environs.
Quote:

I have the same issue with the water-divining in 'Pigeon Post' by Arthur Ransome. It makes me feel a bit cheated, as the book stops being REAL.

I was rather surprised to hear that, when it came time to drill a well at my sister's in North Carolina a few years back, the drilling team brought along a dowser. Standard operating procedure, apparently. Shocked

 

#13:  Author: Kate, Location: Ireland PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:05 pm

Kathy_S wrote:
Quote:

I have the same issue with the water-divining in 'Pigeon Post' by Arthur Ransome. It makes me feel a bit cheated, as the book stops being REAL.

I was rather surprised to hear that, when it came time to drill a well at my sister's in North Carolina a few years back, the drilling team brought along a dowser. Standard operating procedure, apparently. Shocked


I know quite a few people who can water-divine... My grandfather could, and so can a cousin of mine. Anytime my uncle is sinking a well or doing anything water-related on the farm my cousin is called in to help. I've seen him at it, it does work!

 

#14:  Author: Ruth, Location: Physically: Lincolnshire, England. Inwardly: The Scottish Highlands PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:40 am

I wish Flora and Fiona had been given a bigger (or shall I say pigger?!!!) role in the series. I like the way they are portrayed as shy little girls - and they would be having never left their island home! I like the way EBD manages at least a slight attempt at the Hebridean accent. It is quite easy to write another accent if you concentrate (speaking from experience) on what you are trying to achieve, I have done the same thing in one of my books where one of the Masters is from the Highlands and speaks broad Scots - it does look a bit strange down on paper but when you read it with the correct accent and intonation it sounds just right!

 

#15:  Author: Pado, Location: Connecticut, USA PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:59 pm

I've only got the paperback, so the second sight thing burst on the scene rather suddenly...I'm not upset by it, but it certainly never seemed to fit my concept of the EBD world.

What ever happens to the twins later on?

 

#16:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:23 am

This from Reunion:

Quote:
Later on, Shiena was drafted out to Canada where she met her husband and when the girls finished school, they joined her in Quebec. Shiena's still there, but I believe Fiona married someone in Winnipeg and Flora, I know, is living in Prince Edward Island.

 

#17:  Author: Polly, Location: Essex PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:48 am

I really have to get round to reading Reunion. I have had an Armada copy for 18 months now, but am still working my way through the series to it! There are loads of things in it that seem relevant and I haven't read them yet! Confused

 

#18:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:24 am

The Armada is quite cut, so also remember the read the transcript.

 

#19:  Author: Eilidh, Location: Macclesfield PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:55 pm

I like Flora and Fiona. I'm not sure if their accent might be a bit overdrawn, and their clothes are certainly very wrong (they are wearing male highland dress) but I like the characters.

The second sight thing struck me as a bit strange, but I didn't really worry about it. It was just part of the story.

 

#20:  Author: Karry,  PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:22 pm

Eilidh wrote

Quote:
I like Flora and Fiona. I'm not sure if their accent might be a bit overdrawn, and their clothes are certainly very wrong (they are wearing male highland dress) but I like the characters.


I agree that their dress jarred tremendously. Perhaps EBD presumed everybody wore kilts!

 

#21:  Author: Polly, Location: Essex PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 4:25 pm

KB wrote:
The Armada is quite cut, so also remember the read the transcript.


Why did I have some idea that it was one of the ones that only had minor language changes?!! Confused Shocked Maybe it is because it is quite late in the series and those were not cut particularly. I think I will have to get a GGB one as well then. Arggghhhhh! More money! Rolling Eyes

 

#22:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 5:07 pm

It's not really late in the series, Polly, it was the 16th.

 

#23:  Author: James,  PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 6:02 pm

That was about Reunion, Lesley, not HT...

 

#24:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:15 pm

I have both the Armada and GGBP version of Reunion and I only discovered very slight changes, the odd sentence (possibly short paragraph) here and there. Reunion is not even half as bad as HT!

 

#25:  Author: Lesley, Location: Allhallows, Kent PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:20 pm

James wrote:
That was about Reunion, Lesley, not HT...


Whoops! Embarassed Teach me not to read entire thread! Sorry. Laughing

 

#26:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 11:17 pm

Cazx wrote:
I have both the Armada and GGBP version of Reunion and I only discovered very slight changes, the odd sentence (possibly short paragraph) here and there. Reunion is not even half as bad as HT!


Oops, I wasn't meaning to imply that it was anywhere near as bad as HT or Head Girl, just that I noticed frequent minor cuts that add a lot of atmosphere when you read the whole thing.

 

#27:  Author: Polly, Location: Essex PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:59 am

Oh cripes!!! Shocked What have I started?!!!

I still haven't read either copy of Reunion, regardless of any cuts, but have both the Armada and GGBP versions of HT. Will probably have to get he GGBP of Reunion anyway, as I want to have a complete matching series eventually - that means I need to get Mystery as well, even though I also have an Armada of that. Phew!!! This book collecting is an expensive business!!! Mr. Green

 

#28:  Author: Bunty, Location: London PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:01 am

If Flora and Fiona shouldn't have been wearing kilts, what should they have been dressed in?

 

#29:  Author: Emma A, Location: The Soke of Peterborough PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:33 pm

Bunty wrote:
If Flora and Fiona shouldn't have been wearing kilts, what should they have been dressed in?

I think kilts were traditional dress only for men/boys, so I'm unsure what girls would have been wearing instead - perhaps some Highlander can enlighten us!

What annoys me in the book is Joey's nickname of Fauna for Fiona. If I had been Fiona, I would have been extremely narked, to say the least, particularly when the naming is from an adult, not a fellow-pupil. She should have tried thinking of them as Fiona and Flora, and then wouldn't have even tried nicknaming poor Fiona.

 

#30:  Author: KB, Location: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:37 pm

But I don't think there's a female member of any of those three familes that doesn't have their name shortened or turned into a nickname, and 'Fi' is rather too modern.

 

#31:  Author: Catriona, Location: South Yorkshire PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:56 pm

What's wrong with just Fiona, which is her given name? And I would think that Scottish girls at that time would just have worn fairly ordinary clothing - probably tweed skirts and knitted jumpers would have been usual.

 

#32:  Author: Miriam, Location: Jerusalem, Israel PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:11 pm

KB wrote:
But I don't think there's a female member of any of those three familes that doesn't have their name shortened or turned into a nickname, and 'Fi' is rather too modern.


Maeve. Though I'm not sure how you could shorten that.

 

#33:  Author: Catrin, Location: Wirral (holidays), Oxford (term) PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:53 pm

Weren't the twins said to be unusual in that they did wear traditional dress? Here's the closest thing I could find to useful through google:

http://www.medievalscotland.org/clothing/scotwomen.shtml

 

#34:  Author: Ella, Location: Staffordshire PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:59 pm

I can't really imagine any other 'shorts' for 'Flora' or 'Fiona' but - I agree with Emma in that poor Fiona doesn't get much choice in the whole 'Fauna' thing.
I like HT as a whole - I was completely baffled by the twins' speech when I first encountered the hardback, but I think I can see what EBD was aiming for.
I always felt that Flora got rather short-changed because of the whole second-sight thing. To me much more is made of Fiona, and Flora seems to sink without trace!
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

 

#35:  Author: Bunty, Location: London PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:40 pm

I think I must be very dim, but who is the Jean Mackenzie who writes to Joey at the beginning of Highland Twins to tell her about Flora and Fiona?

 

#36:  Author: Cazx, Location: Swansea/Bristol PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:43 pm

I don't think anyone knows exactly who she is...
My theory is that she's some sort of relation to Con Stewarts husband!

 

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